Engineering student, need advice on laptop

[jackluo923]

I guess the amount of time you use your notebook depends on how you take notes. I used a notebook through college (science major), graduate school (technical communications major) and law school (currently an environmental lawyer) to take notes every day.

It actually depends a lot on the content of your lectures. In engineering, there are too much formulas and diagrams. Its just faster to use a notebook than a laptop unless you have a tablet PC. I haven't seen anyone for a long time who used a laptop in class unless they're using it to play games and go on internet when lecture is boring.

[Kuroi-Tsubasa]

I like how you are considering Clemson . I'm actually a freshmen engineering student at Clemson University, so feel free to ask/PM me questions about the college if you like.

Anyway, about the notebook. Some good points have already been brought up (ultrabooks are useless for engineering, Macs are pretty much the same). There are plenty of people here that bought the MBP for many of the same assumptions that you made in your OP (battery life, etc.). However, in practice using OSX laptops for engineering is pretty much a waste, since most (if not all) engineering classes **require** that you use Windows, so you'll have to add on top a Windows license, which is a good $200 or so, depending on which version you go for. For example, ENGR141 (MATLAB class) will not allow you to use MATLAB for OSX because of compatibility issues; likewise, CES102 (intro. engineering class) teaches Excel using Windows, not OSX (there are differences between the two that would make working with the OSX version harder). Battery life on Windows laptops are also just as good, if not better, depending on the laptop (my W520 gets 7-8 hours of battery life on a single charge, beating out many of my friends' MBPs with ~6 hours real world battery, 5 under Windows).

I'd recommend a workstation-class laptop (either the W520, or the M4600). HP's 8560w is way to heavy to carry around (6.5lbs+), so forget that altogether. The W520 is the lightest of the bunch, at about 5.95lbs; the M4600 is a close second at just under 6lbs. I have absolutely no problem walking around Clemson's campus with the W520 + binders in my bookbag; I'm talking about from Holtz to Daniel and the library to Harcombe and Death Valley (large hill between housing and the parking lot there).

As for the M4600, Clemson is a Dell shop, so they sell some package deal for the M4600, which includes a 4yr accidental warranty for a total of $1700-ish. I forget if it includes a 1080p display, but if it doesn't I'd avoid it. You will **want** a 1080p display for engineering work, trust me on that. If the package deal includes 1080p, it could be better than the W520 since you can use perks offered by CCIT, the major one being that if you buy a university-sold laptop, you can drop it off at CCIT if it's broken/acting weird/whatever and they'll give you a loaner laptop to use in the meantime. If you buy a laptop on your own, you can't use that.

EDIT: additional information...

Since I assume you'll wait until summer to buy this laptop, Ivy Bridge would be a nice thing to have. Sandy Bridge is just as powerful as Ivy Bridge for your uses (about 10% CPU difference *max*). The only real-world performance improvement is in the iGPU (HD 3000 v HD 4000), but since you (should) be buying a laptop with a separate GPU (like the W520's Quadro or M4600's FirePro), this is a moot point. In this case, you could either go for an IB laptop, or you can buy a discounted SB laptop during the summer; either solutions will work perfectly for your uses.

---------------

To add my own bias, you should apply for Clemson instead of your other two choices!

Less expensive (even for out-of-state; I don't know if you live in SC or not), fairly fun campus, beautiful environment, and is basically just like a college town you see in movies (the city of Clemson is exactly like the small, college-focused towns you see in movies). Again, feel free to PM me if you want to ask me about the university.

[elamre]

Some good points have already been brought up (ultrabooks are useless for engineering, Macs are pretty much the same).

Why would a ultrabook be useless for engineering classes? Matlab will run just fine, maybe youl have to wait 2 seconds more sometimes, so what? >>. And neither does eagle (or any other pcb design program).
true its fun to have a fast laptop, but it really isnt necesary in the slightest on most of the studys.
as on the macs, you wont be able to be totally dependent on OSx since most of the programs are programmed indeed for windows. The people i know at my uni who have macs, run windows on them as well for most of the engineering study, but they prefer OSx over windows.

[Kuroi-Tsubasa]

Why would a ultrabook be useless for engineering classes? Matlab will run just fine, maybe youl have to wait 2 seconds more sometimes, so what? >>. And neither does eagle (or any other pcb design program).
true its fun to have a fast laptop, but it really isnt necesary in the slightest on most of the studys.
as on the macs, you wont be able to be totally dependent on OSx since most of the programs are programmed indeed for windows. The people i know at my uni who have macs, run windows on them as well for most of the engineering study, but they prefer OSx over windows.

1) I realize that MATLAB runs fine on an iGPU, but I also don't know which engineering major OP wants to go in. Could be mechanical engineering, which requires you to learn how to use Solidworks and/or AutoCAD, both pretty much require a dGPU. As for loading times, that's dependent on the system drive used, not CPU/GPU (it's basically an issue of slow HDD v SSD). What I mean by "ultrabook != good engineering computer" is that it'd be frustrating to try running engineering programs on a low-voltage CPU, especially when you get into higher-level classes with much more complex code than what you make in 1xx level classes. MATLAB is a numerical programming language and at heart it is meant to crunch numbers fast; the under-clocked, under-volted CPUs in ultrabooks won't play nice with that. There's also the issue of durability (no ultrabook is as well-built as a business laptop) and the ability to upgrade the laptop later on in life (RAM is soldered in ultrabooks, and usually the system drive as well).

Then you have the issue of costs. For the same price as an ultrabook (brand new, so they're pricey for what you get), you can get a base-line M4600 or W520. College life is about learning how to manage your finances, and spending that money on thinness and beauty is not a smart thing to do.

2) The personal preference between OSX and Windows is a subjective experience, and I won't try to say that OSX is a bad OS (it really isn't, but neither are other OSes). My main concern here is again budget. If OP buys a Mac for engineering (a Windows-dominate major), he'll have to buy a retail or OEM Windows 7 install, which adds anywhere from $150-$300 (-ish), depending on edition; that right there is a complete waste of college funding that OP may need somewhere else (like books). MBPs and MBA are all about thinness and subjective beauty, just like ultrabooks.

And now that NBR allows discussion of it, OP can always buy a copy of OSX and install it on a Windows-based laptop to turn it into a Hackintosh if (s)he would rather use Apple's OS over Windows when (s)he's not running engineering programs. $30 is a lot less than hundreds, so it won't sting as much.

[elamre]

Thanks for your responce on the matter. I have some last words to add to the discussion.

1) Ultra books arent all looks, the thing is that they are also way lighter, i wasn't so much about the looks, more about the weight. I sometimes have days of 8 hours different classes, taking a heavy laptop with me is just a pain then. Also not all the ultra books have under volted cpu's as far as i know.

2) Budget is always a big point. But one mans budget is not the same as another man, some people have more to spend, maybe he has maybe he hasnt. Its a good thing to keep in consideration. Also i believe you can get a lot of microsoft software for cheaper since hes a student, at least in the netherlands you can. And maybe he has a relative which works at an university, then you can get one for as cheap as 30 euros. But that doesnt reduce of a costy mac though.

Hackintosh is a great concept and idea, however its hard to get it to work proplerly, i have had so many problems trying to run one on my desktop, and once everything worked, i was still missing drivers and such. The chances are that a hackintosh wont work on your laptop simply because the hardware is not supported at all (by third party drivers that is).

also showers are cleaner by a longshot :3

[Kuroi-Tsubasa]

1) Ultra books arent all looks, the thing is that they are also way lighter, i wasn't so much about the looks, more about the weight. I sometimes have days of 8 hours different classes, taking a heavy laptop with me is just a pain then. Also not all the ultra books have under volted cpu's as far as i know.

Probably just depends on the individual's body then. I have no problem running around with a 6lbs 15" laptop in the bag, and the campus here is unbelievably hilly :/.

2) Budget is always a big point. But one mans budget is not the same as another man, some people have more to spend, maybe he has maybe he hasnt. Its a good thing to keep in consideration. Also i believe you can get a lot of microsoft software for cheaper since hes a student, at least in the netherlands you can. And maybe he has a relative which works at an university, then you can get one for as cheap as 30 euros. But that doesnt reduce of a costy mac though.

Well, OP did say the $2000-$2500(max) is around his budget, but I don't see why anyone feels obligated to actually use up most of their budgets. When I go to this subfourm to answer questions, I usually have performance-per-(unit of currency) in mind. To me, an ultrabook is just as good as a AMD-based netbooks (those UBs with low-voltage CPUs) or low-end budget laptops (full-voltage UBs); the only advantage I see besides weight is that ultrabooks come standard with at least a SATAII SSD, but it's usually cheaper to buy and install one yourself than to buy from the seller. RAM is also another component that I usually tell people to buy aftermarket (impossible for an UB).

Hackintosh is a great concept and idea, however its hard to get it to work proplerly, i have had so many problems trying to run one on my desktop, and once everything worked, i was still missing drivers and such. The chances are that a hackintosh wont work on your laptop simply because the hardware is not supported at all (by third party drivers that is).

also showers are cleaner by a longshot :3

Guess it just depends on the particular laptop/desktop in question: some work well, some don't (I know that wireless is usually an issue in hOSX). I'd imagine it'd be easier to install OSX in a VM instead of directly to the hardware, but I haven't tried it myself yet (only 30GB of SSD space left...I really need more than 160GB , too pricey though).

True, university-sold software can be had for cheap, but it mainly depends on the individual university and it's relationship with OEM/vendors.

And baths can be just as clean!

[slapshot30]

If I remember correctly, I do believe the OP said it was mechanical engineering. I couldn't agree more with privatejarhead though. I just couldn't see getting an ultrabook instead of a laptop with a dedicated GPU for something like mechanical engineering. It's always nice to have your work with you instead of being dependent on going to labs and such. I've tried AutoCAD on my laptop without a dGPU and on some drawings it lags pretty badly. The weight really isn't that bad either... A 6 lbs laptop in a bag thrown on your back really isn't strenuous at all. It seems to me like the OP's mind is already made up though. At the end of the day it is his decision.

[rupintart]

So I've spoken to a person from each college and all of them said the same thing (which is what I was also waiting for before pulling the trigger.) Particularly the one at Clemson said "my 2 year old laptop handles these apps fine. Albeit they're not as fast at compiling and rendering as people with cutting edge, but don't buy into the hype of buying the high end M4600 that they recommend. You're carrying around 10 lbs for no reason. We don't use the apps as intensively as the specs suggest."

So I guess that settles it. I'm gonna look for something light and semi-powerful. I've been eyeing the Sony Z series line as their higher end stuff is pretty damn powerful and light/thin. The new W530 is about the limit I want to go as far as weight and size goes. They Sony's are a bit over priced, but their refurb store is pretty reasonable. They also had a big drop in prices after the IB stuff got released, so I'm in luck!

As far as NEEDING power goes, I have a desktop at home. Worst comes to worst, just use the schools PCs after transferring to a flashdrive. But I see what you're saying about the convenience factor of being able to do it all on the laptop. I'm just a minimalist at heart I guess, I like to pack light (pun not intended).

As far as the RPI thing...hah, nice plug. I've been accepted into all 3 schools. My financial packages came back from RPI and Clemson and I'm waiting on CMU which comes in June. Pretty sure I'm going to Clemson because of the financial aspect, but the other two schools are looking fairly attractive based solely on names. Not sure if I want to goto a research university for undergrad though (RPI and CMU.) I'd prefer a teacher not think teaching is secondary to research. Grad school on the other hand....

[Kuroi-Tsubasa]

So I've spoken to a person from each college and all of them said the same thing (which is what I was also waiting for before pulling the trigger.) Particularly the one at Clemson said "my 2 year old laptop handles these apps fine. Albeit they're not as fast at compiling and rendering as people with cutting edge, but don't buy into the hype of buying the high end M4600 that they recommend. You're carrying around 10 lbs for no reason. We don't use the apps as intensively as the specs suggest."

10lbs? Where did that number come from? I sure hope nobody's carrying around a 10lbs notebook daily >.<...

As far as the RPI thing...hah, nice plug. I've been accepted into all 3 schools. My financial packages came back from RPI and Clemson and I'm waiting on CMU which comes in June. Pretty sure I'm going to Clemson because of the financial aspect, but the other two schools are looking fairly attractive based solely on names. Not sure if I want to goto a research university for undergrad though (RPI and CMU.) I'd prefer a teacher not think teaching is secondary to research. Grad school on the other hand....

Clemson's definitely more oriented at the undergrad part of education than grad studies (I actually have no idea what our grad programs are, really >.<...). Most people here that plan on going to grad school are considering more grad-oriented schools, like Duke. As far as names go, remember that Clemson is the #20 best school in the nation (last time I checked rankings), and iirc #1 in "student happiness" (whatever that entails...).

The classes here are pretty nice imo. The two engineering classes I've taken so far (CES102 and ENGR141) are very hands-on, and instructor:student ratio is somewhat low (something like 1:15-ish?). Typically, you have the professor and several TAs guiding the class throughout the semester. As for the general education classes (like CH101, PHYS122), they're your typical lecture-hall, 200+ student classes with one professor and maybe a TA or two. The CH101L (lab) that I took was TA only, and my math classes (MthSc106, 108) were taught by grad students, which annoyed the crap out of me (especially my 108 teacher; I learned jack from him...). Engineering-wise, Clemson is awesome and is highly-regarded, but make sure you're learning your general education well, else you might run into problems. Even with that, I'd still recommend coming here.

One of the cool things I took advantage of is the RISE program (tutoring program for first-year engineering majors). They meet in the lounges of two of the dorm buildings and I was lucky enough to actually get a room in one (actually, right across the hall from the lounge!), and it's great for when you need help studying or finishing a homework assignment that's due in a few hours.

[rupintart]

I'm going in as a junior as all of my gen ed classes are already done (I'm a transfer student.) So I'm not concerned with all of the calc and phys which is why the laptop thing is somewhat important now as I'll be diving into 300 level courses and labs straight out of the gate in my first semester this fall.

Needing a 4 year laptop isn't necessary, I just need something to get me out of undergrad where I'm all over the place as my netbook won't work for these engineering programs. If when I go to grad school (and I make more money) and I'm not commuting around campus as much, a desktop replacement doesn't sound like quite a bad idea when I can ALSO use it for work.

As far as the 10lb thing, I think it was an exagerration of the people who have the decked out M4600's that weigh over 8lbs. It's pretty ridiculous, but I have a feeling most of those people bought the TOTL because it has to get them through the entire 4+ years without needing to buy a new one or run into thier PC being sufficient. On top of that, it's probably thier only computer.

Maybe we'll run into eachother this fall. Clemson is looking like my first choice as it sits right now.