Why is the Passion topic locked???????

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Sequoia225, Apr 13, 2004.

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  1. Magiciaen

    Magiciaen Notebook Guru

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    Hi Underpantman,

    You should read a nice book by the famous French physician Maurice Bucaille entitled "The Bible, The Quran and Science". (You can order it from Amazon). It's interesting for two reasons. You get to learn a little bit about Judaism, Christianity and Islam, the world's three great religions, in the context of science. Even though Islam is now the world's 2nd largest religion, not many people in the US know about it except in a negative light (is projected to overtake Christianity in numbers in about 10 years). You might be surprised about the view of science in Islam (even though the followers have ignored this for centuries), and also about the scientific statements in the Quran (big bang, embryology, all living things made from water etc.). I'm a physicist, neuroscientist and trainee doctor/surgeon myself, and as a Muslim, learning science has really complemented my faith. All the best man!
     
  2. Underpantman

    Underpantman Notebook Virtuoso

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    The name comes from a cartoon character I created during my undergrad days. I started to put it on the web a few years ago, but I have run out of time to keep it up to date due to work etc. I am hoping to one day get the whole series up and running. If interested you can see the first episodes at www.inkmancomic.com
    Just note that when I started this project I had never used flash before, let alone done any websites, or animation. Its just a hobby so don't expect anything to cool.

    Thanks magiciaen for the book. Unfortunately I have been very slack on the reading front of late, and its bad science to discount things without hearing all sides first, so if i get a chance I will look into getting a copy. Also I agree with you whole heartedly on the fact that islam gets a bad wrap from the media, this is no help to anyone and in my opinion helps breed radicalism, and thus terrorism.

    As for what created us, I have no idea, and to some point I don't really care. I believe that I will die and be eaten by worms. To this I also believe that time is circular, that is there is no end or begining. From here things get complex and too long winded for this forum, but that is essentially what I believe.
    a
    [:)]
     
  3. Sequoia225

    Sequoia225 Notebook Deity

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    <blockquote id='quote'>quote:<hr height='1' noshade id='quote'>Originally posted by Shua

     
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  4. TheShaman

    TheShaman Notebook Consultant

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    I beg your pardon on this one point. You are wrong: atheism can be a belief. This thinking is very ethnocentric that theism is the default. If you don't believe in a god then you have no belief? That's not the case. Many so-called atheists are really agnostic, ie not sure what to believe or wanting to believe anything but what religion gives them.
    Atheism proper is a belief (belief!) that there is no god.
    Semantics, I know, but I made a college career out of exploiting semantics.
     
  5. Slat

    Slat Notebook Evangelist

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    <blockquote id='quote'>quote:<hr height='1' noshade id='quote'>Originally posted by Sequoia225

     
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  6. Sequoia225

    Sequoia225 Notebook Deity

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    THESHAMEN,

    I am sorry I cannot pardon you with this point. [:)]

    The prefix "a" means: not, without.
    The word "theism" means: belief in god or gods.

    So like the word "amoral", (as so many of us atheists are wrongly thought to be) means: without moral sense or principles,
    then the word "atheism" must mean: without belief in god or gods
    It is a subtle difference but an important one.

    Atheism is not a positive belief. Atheism makes no positive claim.
    The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.

    Atheists likely have many beliefs. Positive ones.
    But "atheism" only refers having no belief in a god.
    Theres no content there to prove or have a positive belief in.
    Theism is making the positive claim.

    I was not born with any belief pro God or anti-God.
    So....yes, I had no belief.
    I could not actively deny theism without even knowing what it is.

    And your definition of Agnosticism is wrong as well.
    Many many people believe this is some "safe place" between
    being religious or being athiest. It has nothing to do with being undecided or rejecting organized religion.
    It is a belief that mankind cannot know such things beyond what we see and sense around us in the material world.

    There can be agnostic theists or agnostic atheists.
    The former believing God may exist but the nature of God is unknowable.
    The latter believing not only is the nature of God unknowable but the the knowledge of God is also unknowable
    The latter not subscribing to any theistic belief and therefore by definition, being an atheist.

    "Gnostic" refers to on old religious group claiming some superiority in being able to know spirituality above other people.
    Thomas Huxley made up the term Agnostic in the 1800s as a reaction to his uncertainty and to this group of Gnostics. He decided that as a self proclaimed "agnostic", he knew that things of this nature cannot be known.
    The proper statement is not "many so called atheists are really agnostic" but that many so called AGNOSTICS are really ATHEISTS.

    I .....have NO belief in a god or God.
    I cannot "believe" that God doesnt exist as I cannot demonstrate
    nonesistence of a being that someone else has claimed knowledge of.
    I simply have no belief.

    I hope this isnt a "bantering argument" yet. Im trying to not make it one. Just a discussion on meaning. Without any standard of meaning, how can we possibly really communicate?
    Cheers,
    S

    Hmmmm I just noticed in my last post, the last line "I go to great lengths....." is supposed to be in the middle of that post. Not the end of it.







     
  7. Magiciaen

    Magiciaen Notebook Guru

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    Hi Sequoia225,

    I differ with your position that all people are born atheist by default. Purely for information, and not as part of the counterargument, Muslims believe that all people are born pure and with a belief and subservience to God. We believe that beliefs taken on in later life occur through what is taught by parents, society etc. We don't believe in the concept of original sin as in Christianity (although we believe in Christianity itself! Where we differ from modern day Christianity is in the interpretation of the Prophet Jesus - peace be upon him - was/is actually God incarnate in the body of a man or the 'son' of God, or that God is 'comprised' of three parts or separate deities).

    I have full memory of my life from the age of two, and still remember even from that early time that I knew God existed. I know you'll probably argue that even my belief then was an 'indoctrination' from parents etc., but I honestly remember how I thought at this time. I remember it was a very pure and innocent belief, I didn't question it. When I was by myself I would talk to God, imagine there was someone around me everywhere who was greater than anything I could conceive of. I still remember that...... ('Guy in the sky' as I used to call him!! Errhumm <g>)

    The universe we live in is so incredible. All matter, energy, even space-time itself obeys God. That is what the Laws of Physics are. It is a set of laws that we percieve following from the obeyance of all creation. Even creation itself is an obeyance to exist, as we have found in quantum field theory (as is written in the Qur'an and also I think in the Bible, God only has to say 'Be' and it is!). The laws of physics are the same everywhere, and so whatever/whomever makes these commandments has domain over everything.

    So what is different about humanity? What makes us different than the animals, Earth, Stars or other creation? If you drop a pen it'll fall to the floor. Do it a billion times and it will do exactly the same thing. It obeys God without question, and so goes for all creation except for people and the intelligent life throughout the Universe. What makes humans and such intelligent life different is they have the freedom to disobey. So if we, even with this option, obey, it puts us above all other creation. And that is the promise for the destiny of humanity if we do good in this short life.
     
  8. Slat

    Slat Notebook Evangelist

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    How does the Qur'an differ from the Bible--or is it just a different name for the Bible? If it is different, how did it come to be, do Muslims believe in the Holy Spirit? Do Muslims believe that you can get into Heaven (do they believe in that?) by being a "good" person or is there something else they have to do, I guess my ? is, do Muslims believe in the afterlife and if so how do you get there?

    Sony GRT270-16.1" UXGA; P4 2.8GHz; 1GB RAM; 80GB HD; DVD+-RW; 64MB Geforce 5600; XP Pro

    "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
     
  9. Sequoia225

    Sequoia225 Notebook Deity

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    I mean no disrespect to anyone here. Just to say that once again. I am just stating my opinions.

    A child imagining a companion to converse with does not prove knowledge of God to me. If you raised a child in a square box and only gave him supplies to survive but no knowledge of religion or culture, how would he know any nature of God???
    Some theists agree that one cannot know the nature of god anyway and it is all about faith. But one cannot know what to have faith in if one wasnt exposed to the information somehow. If people were born with a belief and subservience to God, there wouldnt be such diversity in religions.

    In fact among us HUMANS, diversity in religions to me is proof enough that its all made up and fictional.
    If EVERY religious person had a similar belief in God, I would be more unsure about this point.

    And if all we know and observe is based on these laws of physics, how is it we know God who obviously does not obey by these laws??

    And what ties God to gravity? Just answer that question. What about gravity shows me anything about some God??

    Humans dont disobey these laws. We are matter like everything else.

    I ask these questions over and over and nobody can ever just show me proof of God. Gravity is gravity. And we have no ability to disobey that law. We can get around it but we are not disobeying the law still.

    What ties these laws to God to someone like me who doesnt know God??

    Again, Im sorry, but this is all needing to know the unknown.
    That doesnt justify God anymore than it justifies the Alien from the movie Alien as having created all this universe.
    We learn more and more about the universe all the time. What part of it ever makes religion more convincing?? If anything, over time, religion keeps changing their facts.

    Or does everything still really revolve the earth??

     
  10. Magiciaen

    Magiciaen Notebook Guru

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    Hi Slat,

    Thanks for your questions! Muslims don't believe that Islam is a separate religion to Christianity or Judaism, or a 'new' faith. Islam is the Arabic word for submission to God, so we believe that anyone who submits to the one God is a Muslim. The first human being Adam was a muslim, so were the prophets Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed (peace be upon them). They believed in one God, and Islam says they were sent by God to teach humanity. In fact, Islam believes in all the prophets stated in the Bible and Torah. The Islamic position on the Bible and Torah is that they were originally thousands of years ago pure books, literal words of Gods related to Moses and Jesus through the angel Gabriel. Just as if you take a sentence and whisper it to someone and let that other person whisper it to someone else etc etc, after hundreds of times the sentence is completely different! The problem with the Torah and Bible is that they were translated back and forth into different languages many, many times, and in addition various Kings changed, cut and inserted completely different human works to suit their own fancies. Every biblical scholar in the world will admit to you that the King George Bible we have today is not the original Bible. For starters, it's not in Aramaic! There are also serious inconsistencies. So, although some original material has survived, it is no longer the original word of God (...in the Islamic position).

    Islam states that religion was revealed to Man many times in history, starting with Adam. However, people kept corrupting and changing it, and so religion was re-revealed. For example, Muslims believe Judaism became corrupted in two ways. First, the Torah is no longer in its original form. Secondly, Jews came to turn Judaism into a closed religion. They believe that anyone who is not a Jew is condemned to hell, and that the only people who can be Jews are those whose mother are Jewish. This doesn't make it useful for the majority of humanity! So, the prophet Jesus re-revealed religion which is now known as Christianity. As Muslims believe it, it also became corrupted through polytheism. Christians believe that the prophet Jesus is the 'son' of God, which is an abhorent concept in Islam (though that doesn't mean we don't respect Christians and love them - Islam teaches us that Christians are the second closest to us in love after Muslims!). Although it is still a completely open religion, Christians believe in three Gods that make up one. Islam is extremely montheistic, just like Judaism, and teaches the absolute oneness and unfathomable nature of God. To us, the concept of the Son brings the Creator down to the level of a reproductive organism, or animal, comparing God most high to his creation. This is why muslims believe religion was re-revealed as Islam. The Qur'an we believe is the literal word of God, still in its original Arabic. Its message is the same as the Bible and Torah. Although the prophet Mohammed was illiterate, it was revealed to him again through the angel Gabriel, and he recited it, and it was written down and memorised by his companions. It is the most recited book in the world, and used in our five daily prayers. It is passed on through the generations not through written form, but through recitation and memorisation. For this reason, every single letter is still as it was 1400 years ago. We still have original copies of the Qur'an from this time, and it hasn't changed at all.

    Yes, we also believe in the Holy Spirit, which we believe is the Angel Gabriel. But of course, we don't believe he is God, but a created being.

    We also believe in heaven and hell, just as in Christianity and Judaism. As for the admission criteria!! This is stated very clearly in the Qur'an. Everyone who believes in the ONE God, and who does not join other gods with God, who submits to the Creator and who obeys Him is promised paradise. Now, the Quran teaches that we are inherently designed as flawed beings who make mistakes. We have to do our very best to do good, and try and erase our inevitable sins by doing good. As long as we do our best to do good, pray to God and don't do any majorly bad things like kill people, rape, adultry etc we're OK! As for Islam's position on the fate of Jews and Christians, this is also stated clearly. They are people of the book, and literally our relatives. The Qur'an states that the truly good people amongst the Jews and Christians, and there many (even though these Christians may believe in the Son etc), are also promised paradise. Even in exceptional cases, God may forgive atheists and admit them to paradise. There is a story told to us of an atheist during a drought who saw a dog dying of thirst, and gave her own limited rations of water to save the dogs life. God admitted her to paradise for that one good thing she did in her life. Basically, there are so many opportunities for us to do good in this life that you have to be a really aweful human being with no redeeming qualities to be condemned to hell for eternity (like a child rapist, or some political leaders whom I shall not mention! Well I'll mention Saddam for completeness, but there are others!).

    Sorry for the long post, hope it will be informative to folks! As long as we truly respect one other, Jews, Muslims, Christians and atheists can live in peace with each other (also stated in the Qur'an!).
     
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