Why buying a laptop in 2019 sucks!

Discussion in 'What Notebook Should I Buy?' started by Joshva, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. 1610ftw

    1610ftw Notebook Consultant

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    Yeah, sometimes I wish I'd taken the blue pill :D
     
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  2. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox BGA Filth-Hating Elitist

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    Well, the good news is you're smart enough to recognize that and probably won't make the same mistake a second time. Not many can say that. It's rare to find that level of intelligence among the masses. Most just keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome.
     
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  3. custom90gt

    custom90gt Doc Mod Super Moderator

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    Ah so people purchasing thin and light laptops because they want a thin and light laptop makes them idiots? And only smart people buy non-bga right? Perhaps people buy what they like and that's what's driving the market? No that can't be right...
     
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  4. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox BGA Filth-Hating Elitist

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    No, it's not right. What people want is not what drives the market. What the OEMs decide to convince the people what to want is what drives the market and then they give them exactly what they (the OEMs) decide they should have. And, because most people are dumb they think it was their idea. The power of suggestion is pretty amazing for those that have figured out how to effectively exploit it. Smart people figure out what they thought they wanted was actually garbage, and they own that mistake because they figure out it was "their bad" for listening to people who think the way they used to think before they figured out they made a mistake.

    To be clear, there are big, heavy and thick BGA turdbooks and they're just about as screwed up as the thin and light ones. There is no excuse for that and it shouldn't be tolerated regardless of the form factor.

    It's not specifically because it's BGA. It's specifically because the OEMs and ODMs that build them make them garbage and do a super-crappy job of engineering them. BGA has its glaring faults by design, but it is not simply the fact that they are BGA that make them broken trash. They are broken trash only because the idiots that build them exacerbate the problem by doing a half-assed job of everything. BGA sucks for repairs and upgrades, but it's not a root cause of malfunction.

    Steve Jobs built Apple on the notion that it was up to them to dictate what people want. Sadly, the majority play along with that program regardless of whether the product comes from Apple or a PC OEM, and those that are smart enough to think for themselves are left stuck with the same pathetic, broken garbage as those who are not. Why? Because the pathetic, broken garbage is basically the only trash available for everyone (with extremely rare exceptions... like one or two... that are also engineered by people that don't care).

    I have a turdbook in my signature. I am typing on it now. It's one of the options that is less screwed up than the alternatives. Am I stupid because I bought it? Arguably, no. But, there are days that I feel very stupid for buying it. I got what I got based on the amount I wanted to spend in order to achieve some specific things with it. It was a very deliberate thought process and I knew what I was going to hate about it before I bought it. But, it was not purchased because it represented what I honestly wanted. I bought it because I am a cheapskate and didn't want to spend more than double what I spent in order to have something that is "almost" good enough to please me in a notebook. But, I will also be the first to point out all of its flaws and criticize it with great passion and contempt for what it is. It's far better than anything else at the price point, but it could have been so much better if the people that built it would have tried harder and actually cared about the people buying the product.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
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  5. custom90gt

    custom90gt Doc Mod Super Moderator

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    And that's your opinion on how the economy works. I am of the opinion that the market corrects itself based on people's wants. If the majority of the people didn't want a "turdbook" then it wouldn't have succeeded. That's my opinion.
     
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  6. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox BGA Filth-Hating Elitist

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    Fair enough. Let's hope it corrects itself before it's too late to make things right for those with a bar set higher.

    I think most consumers have no idea what they are buying. Most purchase things impulsively based on advertisements, how something looks on the surface, and based on the recommendations of people that made equally misinformed buying decisions. The economy merely follows the behavior of those spending money. The economy will be successful even if those spending money are not. That has no bearing on how the CPU and/or GPU are attached to the motherboard. They would (and do) screw things up just as badly with sockets and slots. When you cram 2 pounds of sand into a 1 pound sand bag, the outcome is not going to be good, and you're going to make a mess of things just by trying to do that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
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  7. rlk

    rlk Notebook Evangelist

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    Speaking as one who would like a phone the size of a pack of 4x6 photo paper (close to 1" thick) and who carries around a 7.5 lb workstation laptop, I don't agree with you that customers don't know what they want. I think that by and large they do: they want something that will do what they need, and for most people, the smaller the better. The technology inside isn't important to them.

    What's your real objection to BGA? That the CPU can't be upgraded? There are other mechanical advantages and disadvantages to BGA as a class of technologies, but as best as I can determine there's nothing intrinsically better about a socket or LGA vs. a BGA if you're not going to swap the CPU. And I don't think most customers would really want to, anyway.

    I've done it (with a conventional socket), back in the days of the Dell Inspiron 8000 era. But that and the 8200 that followed didn't last me any longer than my current or previous laptop (5 years for the latter; 2+ years and counting for the former). I could not have purchased a sufficiently faster chip for the 8000 or 8200 to make an upgrade worthwhile. I did replace the GPU in either or both of the 8000 and 8200, because I wanted an AMD/ATI rather than an NVidia (for Linux reasons).

    But except for the black hole that was Skylake/Kaby Lake, the pace of CPU improvements was sufficient that trying to plug in a faster CPU of a compatible generation simply would not have been worthwhile. Obviously mobile performance largely stalled out after Haswell (arguably after Ivy Bridge) until they finally increased the core count with Coffee Lake, so there would have been more reason to want to. And of course, modern laptops have rather less storage capacity than older ones, which could become a major headache for me down the road.

    That aside, I really am curious what your big objection to BGA is. As you note, it's possible to design either socketed or BGA devices with either good or bad cooling, and the thin and light trend does not help that one bit. But that's independent of BGA, no?
     
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  8. win32asmguy

    win32asmguy Moderator Moderator

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    LGA is great because it gives you more choice. If you want to have an i9 with a low end GPU, you can. If you have a budget and need to start with an i5 now, but want to upgrade to an i9 in six months, you can. If you have a great performing chip sample you want to use in your machine, you can. If your motherboard needs to be swapped due to something trivial, like a USB port broke, you don't lose a good performing chip in the process. Many BGA heatsinks have heatsinks only designed for Intel's TDP rating, while in the reality they need to be much beefier to support higher turbo speeds under load.
     
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  9. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox BGA Filth-Hating Elitist

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    The objection is not the concept as much as the practical application. Everything is soldered at some point and that is not the problem. The manner of execution is entirely anti-consumer. BGA is objectionable because it:
    1. Only benefits OEMs because they get to sell more laptops because of 2 and 3 (below).
    2. Harms consumers because replacement motherboards are anywhere from 2 to 5 times more costly. Thus, repairs are unaffordable and that drives them back to 1 (above).
    3. Harms consumers because they cannot upgrade if they choose to and an upgrade is possible. Again, option 1 (above) is their only choice if they want more performance.
    4. If you're a tree-hugger all of the above is a problem for the planet. It increases the carbon footprint and adds more harmful products to landfills. (I'm not of this persuasion and this is not a concern to me, but it is a huge concern of many that claim they don't have a problem with BGA, so I think it warrants mention on that basis.)
    Other than that, I have no objection. Circumstantially, the BGA CPUs and GPUs are inferior only because they are never designed to be high performance products. It's not that they cannot be, they just aren't. The samples that are unlocked have still been gimped a bit because they were designed for systems that Intel and NVIDIA knew would be installed in a chassis with no capacity to properly power or cool a soldered equivalent to a desktop chip, and the OEMs gimped them further with cancer firmware to help them cope with shoddy engineering.

    There is also speculation that the chips used for BGA installations might be silicon that wasn't good enough to make the cut for something stronger, so they get passed down for use in a lower SKU. I don't have a problem with that idea as it reduces waste. Whether it is factual or not is anyone's guess, but it seems no matter what the SKU is those chips find their way into products that are poorly engineered and ill-equipped to support them in terms of thermal management regardless of their bin quality, TDP or core count.

    So, circumstantially, BGA laptops are frequently (almost universally) inferior not because they are BGA as much as because the products that use them are inferior by every measurement, starting on the drafting table.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
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  10. Papusan

    Papusan JOKEBOOKs Sucks! Dont waste your $$$ on FILTHY

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    Add in this for 2. section b. Expensive motherboard is one thing, but find a used/new replacement motherboards is sometimes difficult. Aka you risk not have working machine on a long time. Good luck if all you have outside your broken machine is a phone/tablet.
     
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