The ThrottleStop Guide

Discussion in 'Hardware Components and Aftermarket Upgrades' started by unclewebb, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. laptopnoob678

    laptopnoob678 Notebook Consultant

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    Not yet, I haven't got the laptop :p

    Will definitely try it out as soon as I do though. I was only wondering because I know the CPU I have right now doesn't allow undervolting (Apollo Lake N4200)
     
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  2. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox BGA Filth-Hating Elitist

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    Although I am not familiar with N4200, it's possibly the cancer firmware on the laptop rather than the CPU. Firmware seems to be the thing that is most important and the one major thing that laptop manufacturers fail at consistently. And, by consistent I mean 99.9% failure rate. The only ones I know of that an actual and sincere effort is being made to get it right are the TongFang turdbooks developed in partnership with Intel like the ones Brother @B0B has been actively involved with in collaboration with Eluktronics. Even the highest of the high-end models (Area 51M and Clevo X170) that are actively marketed to performance enthusiasts have screwed up firmware.
     
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  3. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    Edit - I did some digging. ThrottleStop supports the N4200 but as far as I know, the CPU does not have a FIVR so you cannot use ThrottleStop for voltage control.

    If you want me to have a second look at this, try running my RegReport program.

    RegReport
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0dpSo9k93jDVTZ6WXhDUVlrUFU/view?usp=sharing

    This will create a file that shows all of the register values within your CPU. Attach the file it creates to your next post or send it to me in a message.

    I have never owned a N4200 or something similar so I did the best I could with what I had.

    I originally thought you had a CPU similar to the Atom Z3745. This one does not have FIVR but it still allows CPU voltage control. Not sure if the N4200 supports something similar or not.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
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  4. AndreaM

    AndreaM Notebook Enthusiast

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    Hi all,
    I've started using ThrottleStop and I've found it amazing and very useful.
    I have a PC Specalist Vyper III (TongFang chassis) with the hot 8 cores CPU, the Intel i7 10875H.
    I'm playing with it to undervolt and lower temperatures and make the battery last a bit longer. I had good result so far.
    I've one question about these data. Is it normal that ThrottleStop is reporting different values from top and bottom of the table?
    On the top I have almost near 100% values for C7% state, while on the bottom it stays almost on C2% and C3% states, which I understood is a bit uncommon and not the best scenario.
    With the purpose to make the laptop cooler and having longer battery life, are these values suggesting something is keeping the CPU always in activity, avoiding the deeper and low power usage states, such as C7%?
    I hope I didn't make any mistake or having misunderstood how it works.
    Thank you in advance!
     

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  5. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    You are welcome. Thanks for posting the pic. Your feedback helps me confirm that TS appears to be working correctly on your 10875H.

    The C state data at the top shows that the 8 individual cores are spending most of their idle time in the core C7 state. That is good. Once all of the individual cores are in a low power C state, then the entire CPU package can turn off various bits and pieces of itself. This allows the CPU package to enter one of the low power package C states.

    Your C state data shows a common problem. Your CPU package is being limited to package C3. Your CPU can use package C8. This problem might be caused by one poorly written driver. There is an excellent thread on Notebook Review about improving battery run time and tracking down these kind of issues. Manufacturers do not put enough effort in. These problems should be fixed before a laptop ships.

    http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...e-on-windows-enabling-deeper-c-states.815602/

    Sometimes the deeper package C states will only start working when you switch to battery power. Other times, a manufacturer might deliberately disable some of the package C states to improve their SSD benchmark scores. Not a good idea to do this when running on battery power.

    If your screenshot was taken while your computer is idle at the desktop, you have too much stuff running in the background. With an 8 core CPU, the average C0% should be way lower than 9.0%. Individual cores should be spending 99% of their time in the low power core C7 state. Time to sharpen the pencil. There is lots of room for improvement. Here is a number to shoot for.

    https://i.imgur.com/JukYcom.png

    Open up the Task Manger and click on the Details tab. Organize the running tasks by CPU usage. You can also go to the Performance tab and open the Resource Monitor. That keeps a running total of CPU usage for each task so it might be easier to spot a poorly written program or two.

    I am not a big fan of a Speed Shift EPP setting of 255. This slows your CPU down and holds it to a speed where it is not as efficient. A faster CPU can get background tasks done faster and this lets CPU cores spend more time in the low power C7 state. You are being forced to slow your CPU down when the real problem is too many unnecessary background tasks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
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  6. AndreaM

    AndreaM Notebook Enthusiast

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    Hi @unclewebb, thank you very much for your time and for your thorough reply!
    It was very interesting and I learnt a lot from it.
    Glad my post was helpful.

    I had this suspicion since I've started using the machine, as the CPU usage was spiking even at idle and after the "curing" period of a fresh Windows installation.
    I'm considering the cause of these issues being a driver/BIOS problem.

    I think I've erroneously uploaded the wrong screenshot, it was taken while I was running some tasks in the background.
    In the following screenshot I've disabled any network connection, airplane mode, antivirus (Windows Defender) and closed almost of the background tasks. I've already cleaned the startup list a little bit from the bloat which usually come from the productivity apps I use.
    Just to isolate some of potential problematic services or apps.
    Finally I've left the PC idle at desktop with just Throttlestop running and I've got this.
    Package still doesn't go in C7% state and I suppose it's strictly related to the issue described below, after the image.

    [​IMG]

    Sorry, my bad, I was just playing with settings a little bit, I'm still new to ThrottleStop :-D

    To track down this issues I've run a Power Efficiency Diagnostic (powercfg /energy from an elevated prompt).
    Looks like some devices are causing some issue.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  7. laptopnoob678

    laptopnoob678 Notebook Consultant

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    Thanks for the reply and the software (I use it for my other Intel laptop)

    I'm not too fussed since I'll be replacing this laptop with the 5405U laptop soon, but here is the report in case you want it anyway
     

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  8. unclewebb

    unclewebb ThrottleStop Author

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    No worries. You are learning fast.

    The Speed Shift EPP variable can be adjusted from 0 to 255. When plugged in, I suggest leaving this at 0 for maximum CPU speed. Somewhere between 80 and 128 is OK when running on battery power. When idle, when you do not have much crapware running in the background, a huge difference in reported CPU speed usually does not make much difference at all in terms of actual power consumption.

    The PKG Power number is not always accurate when a CPU is mostly idle. To better judge idle power consumption, keep an eye on the CPU package temperature just above the package power consumption data.

    When you adjust EPP from high to low, are you seeing much of a difference in your CPU temperature? There is usually not much of a difference because all 8 of your cores are spending 99% of their time in C7 at 0 MHz. I find that whatever speed the CPU cores are running at the other 1% of the time does not make much of a difference. Users spend too much time minimizing CPU speed when maximizing core C7 residency time when idle might be more important.

    Your CPU supports package C8. It is not unusual for USB issues to interfere with CPUs reaching the deeper C states. The link I posted above is a good resource when trying to sort this issue out. The people that engineered your laptop might have been thinking that a person that buys a laptop with an 8 core CPU will probably not complain if all of the package C states do not work as advertised. This problem is very common.

    @laptopnoob678 - Thanks for the data. Your laptop does not use MSR 0x150 which is where the CPU voltage control commands are in the 4th Gen and up Core i series. It also does not have CPU voltage information in MSR 0x199. This is where VID info used to be in the older Core 2 Duo CPUs and even the Atom CPU that I posted above. You should have no problem using ThrottleStop to undervolt your next CPU.
     
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  9. AndreaM

    AndreaM Notebook Enthusiast

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    Thank you @unclewebb.
    Your guide is so well written it was very easy to follow.
    When using 0 and 255 I see a very little difference, some spikes of 1-2° sometimes, comparing each other.
    Probably it's just a matter of frequencies and voltages when some services triggers the CPU for a little time.
    At 0 EPP sometimes goes into turbo mode, as for 255 it should disable turbo at all, if I'm not wrong.
    Anyway, I'm learning a lot from your posts, thank you very much, I'll do some tests to dig deeper and understand better the power management of the modern CPUs.


    This night I was very tired and disappointed of not being able to successfully optimise the system to enter deeper states.
    I was going to abort it.
    I've tried the last resort: reinstall Windows 10 from scratch, using Media Creation Tool, removing the OS I've found on the laptop when it was shipped (I bought it last week)
    Then, instead of using the drivers of the original manufacturer, I've decided to try the ones from a different manufacturer which sells the same laptop under a different brand name.
    PCB and chassis are the same, they are ODM laptops.

    Don't now if it was the Windows 10 reinstall, but as soon as I've installed the Intel MEI drivers, the right numbers started to appear in my TS window.
    There's still room from improvement, but with just this I've reached 5-6 hours of estimated battery life, while before I was just getting at best 3-4 hours.
    Laptop seems much cooler in the chassis (magnesium alloy, so very inclined to reflect thermal changes).
    Despite the attached image, after further optimisation I've managed to reach 90 in C8% this morning, but I forgot to take a screenshot.

    I couldn't believe my eyes!

    ASPM and USB issues still remains but C8 is working.
    Really don't know what the issue was.
    I've contacted the reseller to help me understand if I could hope for a firmware/bios update in the future to enable ASPM.

    What do you think about the results?
     

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  10. HORRIFIDO

    HORRIFIDO Notebook Enthusiast

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    Hello again:)

    I have been using TS for a year with the i9750H with excellent results, but since the last BIOS update the Voltages are fixed.

    I have looked for information about it but I only find other users who return to their previous update, something that escapes me?

    I have installed the new TS 9.2 with the same result, even completely deleting the program, restarting and installing it from scratch.



    ADDED: I found that my PC (Asus ROG Strix Scar III G531GV) is on the black list!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
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