The Official MSI GS73VR Owners' Lounge

Discussion in 'MSI Reviews & Owners' Lounges' started by NHF, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. tracer2535

    tracer2535 Notebook Enthusiast

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    I mean as far as I know even if you do it properly in the long haul it might damage heatsink since it reacts with copper (or smth along these lines).
    BTW, does it make sense to undervolt my GPU as well?
     
  2. Derek712

    Derek712 Notebook Virtuoso

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    It doesn't react with copper. Only aluminum, which you can easily insulate it from on this heatsink. There's not so much risk with the CPU as long as you insulate it properly and are very conservative with the amount you use.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  3. Ultra Male

    Ultra Male Super Tweaker

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    1) Where did you get that? liquid metal should not come in contact with Aluminum not Copper! From the Thermal Grizzly Instructions:

    [​IMG]

    2) I never needed to undervolt my GPU nor did I ever need to overclock it as well. It is powerful as it is and runs cool with the proper paste and thermal paste application (X Cross).

    Also, I believe the voltage on the GTX 10XX series is locked so how are you planning to undervolt it?
     
  4. tracer2535

    tracer2535 Notebook Enthusiast

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    1) Here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...-works-why-it-fails-and-how-to-use-it.809332/ Copper heatsinks section

    2) With MSI afterburner you can edit voltage curve of GPU
     
  5. Derek712

    Derek712 Notebook Virtuoso

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    I'm not too worried about the copper reaction. As with any paste job, be sure to monitor your temps from time to time and be prepared to replace it at some point when it's bad.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
  6. Ultra Male

    Ultra Male Super Tweaker

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  7. tracer2535

    tracer2535 Notebook Enthusiast

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    You don't need to, it's in the first post.
    I mean, I get it, it's a matter of preference, just pointing out the facts here.

    It's been debated whether liquid metals damage copper heatsinks.
    They do: over time, the gallium in liquid metal will be absorbed into the copper heatsink, causing the LM to "dry" out.

    Let's explain in more detail:
    The electrode potential of gallium is -0.53V, nickel is -0.24V, and copper is +0.34V.
    The difference between gallium and copper favors a reaction that occurs even at room temperatures.

    Obviously, all liquid metals have a high gallium content (plus other metals to reduce the melting point). When the gallium contacts pure copper, the metals irreversibly alloy. This reaction proceeds until there is no more copper or all the gallium is consumed [3].

    The reaction is: Ga + Cu → CuGa2 [67%] + Cu3Ga [11%]. ( + Ga2O3 [12%])
    Both CuGa products are stable until 175C[3][4].

    [​IMG]

    The means liquid metal will literally eat into the copper until the gallium is gone, and the resulting copper-gallium alloy is a silver-ish color. Yes, - in case you are wondering - the gallium in liquid metal reacts this way despite the fact that there are other metal stabilizers present in LM[5].

    The non-gallium components (indium, tin, etc) of the liquid metal[3] which are solid at room temperature will be left behind on the heatsink surface as this process occurs. The formation of this non-gallium metal deposit is most obvious visually when the gallium is totally absorbed into copper. Do note that this residual non-gallium liquid metal is hard and brittle, as you would expect. While this deposit is technically metal and is a good heat conductor, it does not form evenly and therefore it's highly likely that an air gap will also form between the die and the heatsink, and your laptop will hit thermal runaway at this point. This video [link] is a good example of the consequences of this process. This mechanism appears to be the most common cause of long-term failure in LM applications.

    [​IMG]

    Note that at higher temperatures, the invasion of liquid gallium into the copper heatsink only gets faster.[6] Anecdotally, it appears that this process can take anywhere from just a couple months to a year+ until a point of failure is reached.

    The factors influencing the speed of this process include obvious ones like temperature, formula of LM used, surface roughness, and amount of LM used. But, the porosity and purityof the copper heatsink may also play a role. Due to all these variables, accurately predicting the rate of erosion for an application of LM is simply not possible.
    Here's a graph of the mass fractions of the obtained CuGa alloys at various temperatures (oxygen atmosphere) for you nerds: [link]

    This effect is less observed in the classic delidded desktop CPU because the gallium in the liquid metal is far less reactive against the nickle plating of the CPU heatspreader. (The nickle plating is designed to protect the copper against normal solder alloying, but also happens to be effective vs gallium[7]).
    If some people tell you that LM 'dries out' while others say it's totally stable, now you know why. LM is fine under a CPU IHS, and its even fine when used between a die and pure copper, but in long-term use it will pit copper surfaces and this can lead to temperatures that stay stable for months but suddenly spike towards the end of the LM's usable life. Again, nickel surfaces are also pitted, but just at a significantly slower rate:
    [​IMG]
    This image: coolaboratory liquid pro after 1 year on a nickel-plated copper heatspreader. The excess LM has been removed to reveal the heatspreader surface. Gallium-Nickel alloying is clearly visible, but the thermal impact of this alloying is likely minimal. If this surface were exposed copper instead of nickel, then the damage would be worse and you may be able to see metal deposits on the surface.

    The last interesting things to note are:
    1. At 20C, the thermal conductivity of CuGa2 (the principal alloy of gallium and copper) is 98 W/(m⋅K)[1], while copper's thermal conductivity is 400 W/(m⋅K).
    2. While we don't know the exact formula for any of the liquid metals, they are all gallium based so they will all attack copper to varying extents.

    Conclusions:
    1.
    Liquid metals will visibly degrade the copper heatsink surface over time.
    2. Simply buffing the residue off the copper heatsink and reapplying the LM might actually be OK. The CuGa alloy obviously can't match pure copper for heat conduction but it's still way better than solder or thermal paste - the formation of copper-gallium alloy alone should not be the cause of thermal bottlenecks.

    It's not clear from my research how deep the gallium attacks into copper. It is clear that LM will alloy with copper and 'dry out'. However, if over multiple applications the gallium can't penetrate its own pitting anymore, then the LM invasion into copper will stop and you can - theoretically - end up with a 'stable' LM application.
     
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  8. RipleyJohn

    RipleyJohn Notebook Enthusiast

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    hey guys it feels tht ever since i installed nahimic 2 , google chrome has been crashing all the time. Uninstalled and installed it again 5 times but still not fixed. any ideas?
     
  9. Kevin@GenTechPC

    Kevin@GenTechPC Company Representative

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    What if you reset chrome fully?
     
  10. tracer2535

    tracer2535 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Guys, need an advice.
    Repasted my laptop today with Kryonaut (both GPU and CPU) using X method. I was very careful, but there were couple of things that went "wrong":
    1) The manual suggested to disconnect battery first, I disconnected it last cause it was hard to do and I almost took motherboard off to disconnect the battery - the laptop was turned off obviously but I'm not sure if it's safe to disconnect other modules with battery connected.
    2) When I was repasting the CPU a very small amount of paste ended up on green area of CPU where it's not supposed to, I removed it with a cotton bud, then I removed a hair of cotton with plastic scoop that was in the package with the paste. I didn't spread the paste with it though. Anyway, there might be a small amount of paste left on the CPU on green area - don't know if that's safe.
    3) When I re-assembled it but didn't put screws on the bottom cover, I tried turinging it on with no luck - I though I've fried motherboard or something. I've connected the charger - but indicators didn't work either. I've double checked all the connections, screwed the bottom cover back on and the PC turned of although very weirdly. First there was an MSI logo, than it beeped and restared, then it showed MSI logo couple of times and then finally booted up. I've restarted it, it booted up fine, although MSI logo on start-up bugged a bit (like it first disappeared from half a screen). So in short, now it seems to be working, but startups are a bit weird, I fear that I might have done smth wrong especially taking in account a beep and multiple (3-4) restarts on MSI logo during first bootup.
     
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