*** The Official MSI GE75 Raider Owners and Discussions Lounge ***

Discussion in 'MSI Reviews & Owners' Lounges' started by Spartan, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. Kevin

    Kevin Egregious

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    Spending $4k on a GE75 would be questionable even a year ago. It's just not worth that much as MSI's tier down from flagship. The i9-9880H specifically is just too expensive as well, at a $700 to $900 premium for the two extra cores. No CPU is bringing the added performance that makes it worth that much, unless maybe it's for productivity at a high paying job that pays for itself.

    A further real truth of the matter is that a person with a GTX 1070 equipped laptop, gaming at 1080p which the 1070 is still killing, should be thinking long and hard about why they aren't altogether skipping RTX 2000 laptops anyway. The only reason I am considering the Raider-645 is that I have a "take it or leave it" offer from MSI of $1500 instead of $2499 due to the trade in fiasco.

    A final point to consider, regarding timeline, is that while desktop Ampere will be launching in Q2, history shows the laptops drop 4-5 months later. So we are likely looking at a Fall 2020 release for the gaming chips and machines.

    I guess my personal conclusion is that anyone waiting needs to be prepared for a 12 month purgatory, and anyone buying now but anticipating Ampere needs to make a wise financial decision. If you are doing the latter I consider any $3k+ machine sporting a 9880H or 9980HK outside of that realm. The $4k figure is absolute madness.
     
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  2. Valiran

    Valiran Notebook Enthusiast

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    In France, you can buy the GE75-9SG at 2500eur. I had mine at 2300eur, with 230eur of coupon for a next order, so It put the GE75 9SG at 2070eur which is a super price for:
    - 9750h
    - 2080
    - 2*8GB of ram
    - 1TB nVME
    And cherry on the cake, the shop had a plan that they re-buy your computer 80% of the original price (in coupons) if you sold them the computer within the 1st year.

    So, if anything better come before mid-september 2020, I will have a coupon of ~1800eur for it :)

    When you see that the 9880h come at 3500eur, it's pointless to buy it.
     
  3. trias10

    trias10 Notebook Consultant

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    You bring up some fair points, and I totally agree, at a $700 premium, the 9880H is grossly, disgustingly overpriced, however, if and only if you're buying the GE75 to keep for 4-5 years, then maybe possibly you can make a case that 8 cores is a lot more future proof than 6, maybe. And thus $700 spent today to ensure 4-5 years of use is a fair investment. Again, maybe, I can see it both ways.

    And I also agree, my 1070 Clevo P650RS is still fine for gaming, although the 6820HK is weak, and CPU demanding games like the new Assassin's Creed games push it to the limit where you can see and feel its age in the frame drops. Witcher 3 also runs with this odd kind of lag, due to the CPU running at 100% while the GPU is only 70%. But gaming aside, it's really more of a convenience purchase: the GE75 offers a 17.3" screen in a 15.6" form factor which is a big nice to have for work, and the P650RS only comes with a single NVMe slot, so I can't invest in 2 powerful NVMe SSDs which I could carry over to new laptops in the future. Like I said, I'm really keen to combine my work laptop and my personal gaming laptop into one, all-singing, all-dancing machine, and the GE75 is perfect for that, but not at such a high price, and not when Ampere is so close to being released. I would happily spend $3k or maybe even $4k on a GE75 with Ampere 3080, as Ampere will easily last you 4-5 years, people are anticipating it will be an 80-100% performance increase over Pascal due to the node shrink.

    And I agree, Turing is not a worth it for someone already on Pascal (although as my work is in machine learning, the Tensor cores and FP16 capability is nice and I would use it). But like I said, this purchase isn't so much because I'm unsatisfied with my 1070 laptop, it's more a case of wanting a better laptop to combine two other laptops into, and one which has updated tech like 2 NVMe slots, and fantastic screen. Although no TB3 and no G-Sync is another bitter pill to swallow for $3k.

    I get it though, spending $3k or even $4k today on Turing and a 14nm CPU is pretty stupid, you have definitely convinced me of that. As badly as I want the GE75, I will force myself to wait for Ampere. In the meantime, I'll just get used to travelling with two laptops and two big power bricks for the next 12-18 months.
     
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  4. Kevin

    Kevin Egregious

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    We are coming from two different perspectives so our justifications are slightly to wildly different. I am purely a gamer who upgrades every new significant GPU cycle (every 2-3 years) so I have to be very conscious about spending efficiently to make sure my investment includes as little sunken cost as possible.

    You definitely have very solid justifications to buy an RTX laptop asap. You're traveling with two machines (I would never), the Tensor cores and better 6 to 8 core CPUs would improve your work, etc. The conflict you seem to be having is figuring out how much laptop you need and how much you can swallow spending to accomplish this consolidation, with the weight of 2020's 7nm GPUs adding pressure.

    Have you considered making a purchase, but not going all in this year? Maybe a far cheaper 9750H and RTX 2060 combo to accomplish your short term goals, then spend big on the laptop that you'll keep for 4 to 5 years when Ampere is out around this time in 2020?
     
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  5. trias10

    trias10 Notebook Consultant

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    Agreed, and while I could convince myself that buying now is warranted because of work, deep down inside, I'm like you: I want to time laptop purchases to be 100% optimal, such that I can ride the crest of my newly purchased laptop's CPU+GPU for a good 4-5 years, because it's always a huge amount of money to spend and you want it to be smart and last a long time. But you also want to minimise next generation buyer's remorse. And if the rumours are to be believed, Ampere will be SO good that it will bring a huge amount of buyer's remorse to anyone who dropped $3k+ on a top-end Turing laptop.

    I have thought of buying a stop-gap laptop, but it's not really worth it (for me). If you're going to invest all the time to fresh install an OS, migrate and configure everything, merge two laptops, you kind of just want to do it right from the start, on a proper laptop you can be proud of. I don't like half measures or stop gaps, if you're going to invest time into doing something, may as well do it right.

    That being said, I have seriously considering the newest HP Omen 17 as a stop-gap. For $2k, you can get one with 9750H (or 9880H for $2.5k), 2080 RTX, TB3, and G-Sync. On paper, it's the perfect laptop for this generation. Unfortunately, it's big, mighty big. It's not a 17.3 inside a 15.6 like the GE75; it's a titanic beast, with a comically massive power brick. So while it passes the gaming test, it fails as a work laptop (too big and annoying to lug around).
     
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  6. Porter

    Porter Notebook Virtuoso

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    I know its not quite the same thing, but if you don't mind an Amazon Warehouse deal you can get the GE75/8750H and 2080 for 2,050 USD. I did that 6 months ago and it looked brand new and has worked awesome for me, still stock paste and will likely stay with it. I've done this several times and it seems it is mostly either damaged boxes for items or possibly a return, but I've never gotten anything that looked "used" from the Warehouse deals.
     
  7. Ocmersh

    Ocmersh Notebook Enthusiast

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    Well...

    Hello all you jolly souls.

    Despite that whole "9880h is madness" bit... I broke and bought it from GenTech PC, with the rtx 2080. It came last week.

    And I love it.

    Its the only laptop that can (currently) do what it can do in this form factor. And it will stay at the top of the pack for probably about a year or so. And when "3080's" roll out.. Here is my 2 cents:

    Aside from abnormal jumps like what we saw from 980 -> 1080, generational improvements are generally small, and that is the norm. . The power wall was hit long ago, and with physics now becoming a problem, these are huge obstacle to overcome. The GE75 laptop has a 1080p panel, which means the 2080 in it will run games at full fidelity for 3 years, at least. If not longer if you happy with 60 fps 1080p. You were able to get a laptop in 2016 with a GTX 1080, and i'd be hard pressed to say that wont be suitable for another 2 to 3 years at that resolution. So as far as waiting around for another 12+ months for a (likely) generational improvement, I don't see it as a huge benefit. By the time Ampere comes around, Nvidia will again be working on their next project to be released in another 12 - 24 months. And again expect another 15 - 20% bump.

    And 8 cores. Despite the high sticker price, that will eventually be the new standard, but will command a premium for the first few generations. It is a norm in desktops now, and laptops wont be too long for it to follow suit. When 4 cores became the norm, their reign lasted for nearly a decade. Consider the performance of one of the very first high performance i7 quad core in a laptop, vs the performance of one of the very last flagship laptop i7 quad core. ( For this example the i7 840 vs the 7700hq), those 2 chips were released more than 8 years apart. However, the 7700hq was only roughly twice as fast as the 840. 8 cores in an laptop is ideal if you plan on it being relevant for a long time, in my opinion.

    So in purchasing a laptop i'd ask: Do I want to wait another 12 months for 20% (potentially, remember Nvidia is dumping ALOT of resources into RT, no different with ampere, it might simply be a 20%, or maybe more, but with the majority of that considered in RT performance) ? I don't think so. I think now is a great time to get one. Enjoy having one of the fastest machines you can have in a laptop for about a year. After that just enjoy the solid performance. If your OK with waiting roughly a year now with sub-par performance, you'll be okay in a year or two when your machine is no longer the fastest.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  8. trias10

    trias10 Notebook Consultant

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    You bring up some very interesting points, and believe me, there's nothing I want more than to embrace your philosophy and order a GE75 of my own tomorrow. But it's not about any kind of bragging rights to having the fastest laptop and then losing that. That's not part of the calculus at all. The real problem is money vs inability to upgrade, and therefore trying to determine if the current gen tech is an inflection point or not. Because gaming laptops cannot be upgraded at all, the CPU and GPU you're stuck with for the life of that laptop. So you want to buy a CPU and GPU generation which represents a good inflection point -- a point where that gen is considered a fantastic leap ahead of the old gen and therefore won't reach obsolescence as quickly, and therefore your investment lasts longer.

    By all accounts I've read, people seem tepid on Turing for being a rather small upgrade from Pascal (RTX tech aside, although everyone complains that RTX can't even hit 1080p at 60). Perhaps everyone is spoiled though, after the Maxwell -> Pascal leap, everyone wants 50-70% generational improvement or GTFO. I personally don't have an opinion on Turing being ****e, it seems like a fine generation to me. However, while opinions on Turing may be split, pretty much everyone seems to agree that Ampere will be another Pascal level leap ahead, due to the almost 50% die shrink. I'm not an electrical engineer, so I don't know if the gains are linear. I mean, AMD Zen 2 is on 7nm, but it more or less matches 14nm Intel chips on a core for core basis (Zen 2 has more cores, yes, but each core doing a single threaded operation is roughly as fast as a core on Intel 9th gen at 14nm). Although at the very least, while core for core raw performance is similar, the Zen 2 uses less power and generates less heat for that same performance, so at least there's that from the die shrink.

    I guess the main difference between our positions is, you're betting low on Ampere and I'm betting high. Only time will tell who is correct. And because gaming laptops depreciate so quickly relative to how much you spend on them (which is a huge amount compared to equivalent tech in a desktop), the buyer's remorse for me is equally huge. I understand that new generations of tech get released all the time, and that's fine, you expect to see a 10-20% degradation with each new gen and that's normal. But what's not normal is a 50-60% degradation, that sucks, that really is hard to deal with if you get that degradation because you bought only 6 months too soon, that's what I cannot deal with at all. If I bought today, and Ampere ends up as only a 20% bump, I'd be happy, I'd sleep easy at night. But if I buy now (for $4k), and in 6 months Ampere hits, and it's a Pascal level home run, with 50-60% improvement across the board, I'll feel like a real idiot, and I'll know I ended up buying into the wrong generation, like the poor sods who splurged on an expensive laptop in Haswell/Maxwell only 6-8 months before Skylake/Pascal arrived. Versus someone who bought at Skylake/Pascal and has been sitting easy since then, because everything which has released since then has just been a small iteration on that.

    And for the record, I was that poor sod who splurged on Haswell/Maxwell with only 6 months before Skylake/Pascal. And I ended up having to buy a whole new laptop only 8 months later because Skylake/Pascal just annihilated the previous gen. It was a very costly learning experience, and costly mistake, one I'm not keen on ever repeating again.

    I do agree with you though that we're hitting an engineering/physics wall, and 7nm will probably be the last great generational leap for a long, long time. Hence, buying a laptop with 7nm CPU and 7nm GPU will probably last you a minimum of 5 years, maybe even 6. And while I'm not willing to wait for Intel 7nm CPUs, 7nm GPUs with Ampere are only 6-8 months away, which is close enough that I can wait. I do also agree with you about the 9880H and 8 cores being the new normal. If I was to buy a GE75 today, it would be the 8 core version after all, costs be damned.
     
  9. Ocmersh

    Ocmersh Notebook Enthusiast

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    All very good points. Yes I am betting it to be lower in performance than others might. But we will see.
     
  10. martin778

    martin778 Notebook Consultant

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    Oh wow, didn't expect the bottom case to be that garbo on the GE75. I've replaced the very slow 512GB NVMe with Adata XPG8200PRO 1TB and in process pretty much every plastic clip on the bottom cover broke off, almost like it's intentional. I've tried so carefully, going bit by bit but still - they just fly off and in the end you have to keep reopening the laptop to prevent tiny pieces of plastic from flying around and possibly hitting the fan blades.
    I have 2x8GB G.Skill 3000 CL16 on order, wonder if these will do XMP in the GE75.

    Performance wise it's an absolute bomb with rtx2080...it runs at 2GHz in turbo mode and around 76*C peak without any UV applied. So I guess it's pretty much on par with a desktop 2080?
    Yet the CPU is cooking up to 95*C even with -100mV on the core.
     
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