'Subjective morals' is the reason why 32 people are dead today.

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by hollownail, Apr 16, 2007.

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  1. Rahul

    Rahul Notebook Prophet

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    Well, I'm in trouble then! Sorry I'm not normal like everyone else. :mad: :eek: :(

    Not trying to be bitter and sarcastic here. It really is frustrating when you really feel like the only one depressed, lonely, etc among a sea of normal, happy people, really is frustrating and angering. Guns are not the problem here, and metal detectors won't do a darn thing, thats for sure.
     
  2. hollownail

    hollownail Individual 11

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    Yeah I know how you feel. I remember when I was a senior in HS and Columbine happened... The media reaction and public reaction was just wrong. They came up with some complete BS about how goth kids were violent and crap. So, being a gothic kid in a rural type HS, it was kind of problematic. While most people knew me, it still created an even worse stigmata. People were getting kicked out of school for wearing black.
    I had a friend who got kicekd out of HS cause she said that "if they had worn Abercrombie, they wouldn't be trying to ban that clothign line" or something like that. She got removed from school because this was seen as "threatening students".
    The only thing they did there, was alienate more people, who often had it rough enough as it was. It was even more frustrating that the media and law enforcement was framing "gothic society" as the problem, instead of looking at the real causes of that incedent. And I'm not sure how banning trench coats would help either, since if I was going to go to school to kill people, I don't think I would be worried that I'm not allowed to wear a trench coat.

    That whole thing really pissed me off...
     
  3. Rahul

    Rahul Notebook Prophet

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    I know I'm probably the odd one out in that I sympathize with the killer and am focusing more on him than the poor victims he hurt and killed, its because I sympathize with him, have more in common with him than with most of the rest of the "normal" people. And you do face a stigma, get alienated, doesn't make anything better, only worse. There's such a sharp line between the "normal" people he killed and then the mentally sick that he was and I am a bit as well.

    The best way to stop these acts of carnage is never going to be by gun control laws, or metal detectors. Thats all just a waste of damn time. Its going to be by always focusing on these troubled people, myself included. Several people knew that Cho was very disturbed but were passive about it for the most part, they didn't actively try to seek him out and help him out but thats also our human nature. He didn't want to have any company or people to do anything with him but then you'd have to force to be his friend and companion. Never ever ever ignore these people and let them slip through the cracks, thats what always happens, its happening to me as well, I am the only one in my whole family and circle of people I know that is depressed and thinks about suicide and nobody can relate to me or knows at all how I feel and its so painful to stick out so badly as Cho probably did.

    I just really feel for the guy and hope he can find peace along with his victims, he suffered a lot in his world.
     
  4. desert dweller

    desert dweller Notebook Geek

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    Please get some help for your depression. Depression is largely a feeling of powerlessness, and you're not powerless. As a rational person (one who is able to think and to reason,) you can make choices that will change the circumstances in your life. Or you can change your perception of the circumstances. You probably have a lot more in your life to be thankful for than you're allowing yourself to perceive.

    Trust me, the "normal, happy people" have their own sets of problems. The difference may be that they have not conceded to defeat.

    Who knows what complex components of Cho's life led to his actions, but one thing he indulged in was alienation. Don't go there.
     
  5. Gautam

    Gautam election 2008 NBR Reviewer

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    Rahul points out an interesting fact (regardless of the fact that I do NOT sympathize with the killer's actions, I can however feel sad about depression/hate/anger/suicidal feelings), an idea of which has been part of my own philosophy for as long as I can remember. The reality is that people in trouble need to be believed, and they need help. This help may or may not come from family or themselves - they need a community of people who will believe that they are in trouble, and will take appropriate action(s) to elicit change.
     
  6. Circa69

    Circa69 Notebook Evangelist

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    Happy, Normal people? I don't know very many.

    I have friends with money trouble who are in dire straights but fight on. I have other friends who chose poorly when picking a mate and are in the midst of a disintegrating family but fight on. I have a friend who recently lost a child yet she fights on. On of my wifes friends is a single parent of 2 after her husband committed suicide 2 years ago but she fights on. While life is fun, happy, and joyful it is also pain, suffering, and death.

    The point is we all have to deal with life. Some weep, drink, or get depressed. Some get angry or violent. Some see a shrink or priest. Some internalize while some blame others. We all deal in our own way. Some ways of dealing are bette than others. Remember, nobody is suffering alone and most put on a happy face in public. The good news is that it will change, life goes on and people find new work, new friends or spouses, and you will see the fun and happy again.

    People that do these things are not normal, they are wired wrong. Your own comments show you not to be like cho.

    He was given help, and if the information ever presents I bet we will find that he felt that was another wrong against him. wired wrong. Being depressed or having bad feelings about oneself is not the same thing.
     
  7. Lysander

    Lysander AFK, raid time.

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    I hope that all parties involved in this tragedy find peace (Cho included).
     
  8. Jalf

    Jalf Comrade Santa

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    Aren't they? There's always depressed or lonely people. But they simply can not possibly kill 33 people without a gun.
    That means guns must at least be *part* of the problem.
    (Or more specifically, the problem is the combination of depressed, angry, lonely and mentally unstable people *plus* guns)
    And yes, it's not just that he was depressed. I think it's pretty clear by now that he had bigger problems than that.

    To me, the obvious solution would be to try to avoid both. Try to take care of people who have problems, and try to avoid guns where they don't belong.

    Put simply, why do these things so often happen in the US, and not in the rest of the world? We have plenty of angry, depressed, lonely and even insane people. Just as many as the US. So it's not *just* that.
    Could the difference also be that here, people generally don't have guns? I've never seen a civilian carrying a gun in my life. I don't know of anyone who owns one. That means if I felt like hauling off and killing as many people as possible at my university, I'd have to do it with a friggin' breadknife!
    And that probably helps avoid it. If I had a gun, and was really pissed off at the world, well, I'd know that I could at least take down a handful of people before anyone could stop me. If I was angry enough, those would be acceptable terms.
    But with a knife? I might be lucky enough to injure one person, but probably I'd just scare a lot of people who'd then run away very fast. Not very satisfying for someone who hates the world and want to kill everyone at his school.

    It's so easy to say "guns aren't the problem", "guns don't kill people" and all the other mindless mantras the US gun lobby spews out. It's also a convenient way to avoid even *considering* the issue. Of course gun control *alone* won't solve anything. But isn't it possible that it would work well combined with other measures?

    Again, drawing a few parallels to the rest of the world, the US is the *only* western country that has this extremely powerful group of extreme right-wing, extreme conservative, religious fanatics. It is the only (western) country where such a movement for "absolute morals" even *exists*.

    So shouldn't that simple fact mean that shootings like this were infinitely more likely to happen here in Europe? If "subjective morals" were the big enemy, most of Europe would have dissolved into a big gang war long ago.

    So again, something here doesn't quite ring true.
     
  9. zicky

    zicky Notebook Evangelist

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    Well, I'm going to make a comment on this. The shooting at VT isn't the first time I've heard of a shooting at a university. Like 20-30 years ago, that was the usual at the National University of where I live. My boss was telling me of how a couple of his classmates carried guns to their class and the professors just gave them passing grades out of fear of retaliation in case of failing. One of them shot down a few people when he presented himself drunk at class just cause he was too proud of something. He only got detained for a bit, and then he was left off by the police cause he didn't kill anyone. While this was not Cho's case, I thought it merited some mention.

    I don't condone what he did although I can relate to. I've been depressed for many years and as a matter of fact, I'm diagnosed with clinical depression, and I don't see any psychoterapist or something nor do I take any medication. However, I deal with it!! It's not something it'll go away or whatever, I've probably been like this since I was a kid. The thing with depression is that people try to find more reasons to stay depressed (at least, I do), for instance, I listen to music that makes me sad and stuff. Cho probably wrote his plays while playing Doom or something similar. Whatever emotional support I may have is literally two countries away of where I am, so I understand what Rahul says when he sympatizes with Cho, but the one reason I don't snap out is cause I have a strong sense of morals. It really boils down to what education you received when you were younger. It is kind of painful when you're depressed to see people passing by laughing and talking, hugging, cuddling, kissing, playing, etc and not even paying attention to you, but that does not give anyone reason enough to take someone's life.

    It all comes down to the way you were raised. If you weren't raised to persevere, you'll probably crumble under the pressures of life. Pride has to do with it too, some people let their pride take the best of them (ex. When I was switching jobs, I was down in the police station asking for a document that stated I had never been arrested nor under investigation, the window is actually outside of the station, so there were 3 teenagers having breakfast in front of me, one of them was teasing the other, so the teased got back at him by saying something stupid and the teaser got really pissed, he paused a bit as he let his fury build and then punched the other one to the ground saying, you're not making a clown out of me ... all this right in front of the police station, needless to say, a lady officer came out and separated them and the teaser ran away). I mentioned this cause if that guy had a gun, he would've probably shot down the other, I wasn't more than 5 feet away from them making the line (they brawled close enough I had to push myself against the wall and raise one leg so I wouldnt get hit by the two falling down) so I probably would've gotten hit by a gunshot or something, so yes, guns are part of the problem but not the totality of it. Just my two cents from my personal experience.
     
  10. flanken

    flanken Notebook Evangelist NBR Reviewer

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    I agree with you that blaming this on morals is an asinine way of finding a scapegoat for the true underlying problem, psychpathology.

    However, I will have to disagree with your characterization of mass killings as solely an American problem. Psychopathic killers exist in other countries as well, and somehow they still get ahold of guns and kill large numbers of people (e.g., Erfurt, Zug, Sanaa, Port Arthur, Dunblane, Aramoana, Strathfield). I can't comment on the relative frequencies of killing sprees in the US compared to other countries, but killing sprees are hardly an American phenomenon solely.

    Also, it seems that someone with a knife can do a lot of damage. I have no idea exactly how it was done, but if I were to guess, I would say that group psychology comes into play here; the larger the group, the more likely they're just going to stand around and do nothing, even though their chances of survival are better if they all rushed the attacker, or all fled.
     
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