Ryzen vs i7 (Mainstream); Threadripper vs i9 (HEDT); X299 vs X399/TRX40; Xeon vs Epyc

Discussion in 'Hardware Components and Aftermarket Upgrades' started by ajc9988, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    Evidently you guys need it. You sure cannot figure it out yourselves if you think AMD cannot get over 8% IPC in a new CPU architecture but think Intel can get 17% frequency increase, something not done since possibly sandy bridge or earlier.

    And I'm talking peak increase on the architecture under water overclock, not Intel leaving room on the table then increasing frequency the following iteration, but the process not really adding more than 100-200MHz amounting to 5% or less.

    Literally, nothing has been shown for Intel improving 10nm iterations worth anything. Hell, Intel is resurrecting 22nm Has well designs now! And yet we are to believe Intel is going to pull a rabbit out of it's hat on 10nm++, when they didn't on 10nm to 10nm+. Give me a break! I don't believe in fairy tales, so considering Intel had initial issues going from 22nm to 14nm, delaying it a year, then rehashed skylake on 14nm for three or four years because they can't really get 10nm going right, how am I supposed to believe they will get that gain in frequency on 10nm++ or have a 7nm working process in 2021? I'll believe it when I see it.

    AMD has actually been delivering on IPC gains and changes when they claim them the part couple years and TSMC has been nailing the process nodes so hard that they are talking 3nm in 2022, which would be a switch to gate all around, most likely using nanosheet FETs. They have 5nm at 50% plus yields with Intel's 10nm (7nm equivalent at TSMC) yields being in the teens to 20s. So where is your analysis coming from? Certainly not reality.
     
  2. tilleroftheearth

    tilleroftheearth Wisdom listens quietly...

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    Your reality is wack. My reality is that an AMD platform, as a whole, feels less snappy than a remotely comparable Intel one. You don't see this. I don't care (if you do or not).

    I do and don't care for any bellybutton focusing 'analysis' that refuses to accept what is actually real, and not merely theorized.

    AMD has been far, far behind for a very long time. I applaud the efforts and gains made by them, but they still have a way to go.

    I don't care where AMD or Intel bring the improvements from; I just buy the actual improvements (when they're there, for me and my clients).

    This is the reality: Intel's demise has been greatly exaggerated. Stay tuned to see what tech we'll get to play with next and leave the 'analysis' to people who actually know, not the people that can do the simple math of random units to prove their own agenda.
     
  3. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    So lots of words, lots of conclusions, zero facts and evidence. Good job being your normal self with the level of analysis I've come to expect from you!

    For snappiness, do I need to post the date and times Jayztwocentz and others say AMD is as snappy? Maybe I could post the analysis between Wyndell of level1tech and Dr. Cutress from Anandtech basically taking a dump on Intel for a couple hours after the Threadripper release. You are not those people with hard data supporting their conclusions (which they give behind the scenes insight in that two hour conversation).

    Also, when did I say this is Intel's demise? Intel is going to weather this storm. Their worst case scenario is FUBARing the 7nm process, something that cannot be known until 2021-22. I said wait and see for them to deliver and don't have faith in them until they deliver, not that they are dying.

    A proper reading would say AMD's initial order was too low on Zen 2 parts and keeping more for Epyc has, between the order and Epyc demand, caused limited desktop growth. The server sales will filter into the market share numbers in Q4 through H1 2020. The mobile numbers shocked me as Intel was targeting holding them to 12% and the projection was around 15% and AMD got 14% in the one area Intel truly dominates in.

    But, me showing Intel holds over 80% in desktops and mobile, along with over 90% in server says they are not dying. Until AMD holds 40% of the server market, I'll likely agree with that. If Intel doesn't deliver on 7nm, they are in deep poopoo, though. At that point, they WILL need to contract with either TSMC or Samsung for their process IP OR to fab for them.

    Intel has some great architectures, but are plagued by process woes. The reason the 8-core rocket lake has fewer cores is because it is a wider core design. They designed those for smaller nodes that save space so that you get the increased performance of going wider without creating significantly larger dies which can reduce yields, etc. That is why, since comet lake is not a back port, rocket lake, even with two fewer cores, should have the increased IPC with sunny cover and the advantages of Willow cove, which did not focus on ST performance. It will be a good chip. But that will be competing with Zen 3, and since this is not a skylake derivative, we don't know heat output or expected power efficiency curve. As such, if Zen 3 does get an IPC boost of 10%+, Intel having a core deficit may harm it. Pricing may harm it. Etc.

    Anyone denying Intel's problems (you) seems to be willfully obtuse at this point, just as anyone saying Intel is dead is the same on the opposite end of the spectrum.

    Notice you trying to lump me in with another class to diminish and dismiss my analysis. Common tactic for people who lack foundational argumentation.

    Come back when you have an actual argument.
     
  4. Deks

    Deks Notebook Prophet

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    That's odd, because the snappiness of both the GL702ZC and Predator Helios 500 (all AMD hw laptops) was pretty high/excellent and I hadn't seen anyone complaining of their desktop Zen systems.
    Plus, independent reviews would definitely disagree with you on Intel being more 'snappy'.

    Anyway, it is correct that Intel has been messing things up with 10nm repeatedly, and I'd take their claims on IPC and performance gains (not to mention readiness of 10nm) with a grain of salt.
    Is it possible they will deliver? Of course its possible, but given their track record, I wouldn't hold my breadth until the reviews are out (and if you check my post history on prior AMD releases, you'd notice I maintained the same attitude).

    AMD has been quite consistent (not to mention dependable) in their claims about IPC and performance increases since launching Zen uArch.
    And as it was noted before, TSMC reported that 5nm yields are already at (or better than) 50%. So, when compared to Intel, AMD actually has the process advantage (even the existing 7nm is better than Intel's 10nm... 7nm EUV on which Zen 3 is being released in late 2020 on is even better - and Zen 3 was touted to be by AMD itself 'a brand new uArch' - so its quite likely we will be seeing up to 15% increase in IPC... if not potentially more, but like with anything else, I maintain the premise we need to wait and see until its actually released to gauge its performance).

    Your conviction regarding Intel's promises doesn't have conclusive evidence to back it though. We have a stack of broken promises, delays, and extremely low yields for 10nm. I just don't see how Intel can ramp up yields of 10nm to be viable for desktops... and if they do, the clock speeds will likely be lower even compared to AMD.
    Also worthy of note is that mobile chips with 10nm Intel parts have demonstrated some noteworthy benchmark scores against AMD APUs'... that is, APU's of 12nm using Zen+ (not Zen 2).
    So, it will be interesting to see how Zen 2 stacks up against Intel mobile 10nm parts.
     
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  5. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Intel's Marketing "Benchmark" Claims Shenanigans are baaackk...

    First a short translation and report of the most recent marketing shenanigans from Intel (starts at 00:40), then AdoredTV reviews this and the rest of the last years and more Intel BS:

    Intel Has COMPLETELY Lost It, 3nm COMING!
    Dec 8, 2019
    Gamer Meld
    Intel making the wildest claims, Radeon RX 5500 XT is real, 5nm is around the corner and 3nm?! Stay tuned...


    phoenixtheraver 1 hour ago
    "It's so sad how Intel has been beaten so badly, all they got left is to slander their competition with lies and propaganda. It's both sad and really pathetic."

    Ramon Schepers 1 hour ago
    tsmc: 3nm!
    intel: lets move back to 22nm! intelol.

    F_S_P 1 hour ago
    ""Stop it. Get some help." Best meme for describing Intel right now"

    Anton Nym 2 hours ago
    "I'm still upset with Intel for decades of incremental improvements, unfair, monopolistic business practices, and massive overcharging. Intel has therefore made me a huge AMD fanboy. Go AMD!"

    Darrel Madden 46 minutes ago
    "Which is exactly why I went all in with Ryzen. I've been in IT for over 30 years and Intel have been dirty for way too long. And my R5 1600 runs just great."

    Intel's Disgraceful Marketing Gets Worse
    Dec 7, 2019
    AdoredTV
    ...and [Intel] also violates the FTC orders.


    Excalis Ogre lord 1 day ago
    "I will personally never buy an Intel CPU again."

    spaceduck413 1 day ago
    "Ahh yes, just when I was thinking MAYBE a 10980xe would work for my use case if it came back in stock before the 3960x, Jim releases a video reminding me why I don't want to give Intel any of my money. Great timing Jim!"

    nazgul77de 1 day ago
    "Thanks a million for uncovering and summarizing marketing fraud and taking the diligence to report it to the responsible authorities. Let us hope that major OEMs get tired of Intels delivery issues and are not afraid of Intels wrath when offering competition products that customers are asking for. The very very sad thing is the majority of the public will never be aware of the scale of the lies, because the [BS] marketing gets advertised widely thanks to Intel money, not the analytical tech press reports exposing the truth."

    JwJw01 1 day ago
    "30:33 Damn you're not holding back. Go get them."

    To end on a positive note, here's ThreadRipper 3 killing it against Intel:

    Threadripper 3000 Launch Overview - AMD's Victory Lap
    Nov 25, 2019
    AdoredTV
    Intel's pain will be even worse in 2020.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  6. TANWare

    TANWare Just This Side of Senile, I think. Super Moderator

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    The problem with AMD owning HEDT is they actually have to get silicon to market that can be purchased. A limited release just to reviewers as PoC won't cut it for long.
     
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  7. custom90gt

    custom90gt Doc Mod Super Moderator

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    I wasn't going to say anything but this was just too funny. You "feel" that AMD is less snappy, but talk about what is "actually real." I've used a desktop/laptop or two over the years and I don't "feel" a snappiness difference between them provided they have similar SSD configurations. You've certainly made up your mind that there is some usability difference between AMD and Intel and that's all you're banking on. I don't see it and I've used a lot of hardware.

    I think blindly supporting any company is a silly thing. I'm glad AMD is on top for the first time since the Opteron 165 days, it is helping them gain market share which should help them remain competitive in the future. Intel has been stagnate for far too long.
     
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  8. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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  9. TANWare

    TANWare Just This Side of Senile, I think. Super Moderator

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    He has to admit the lack of 2019 TR sales is the absence of 3960x and 3970x in the market for sale.
     
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  10. ole!!!

    ole!!! Notebook Prophet

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    intel back porting so we might get to see golden cove on 10nm+++, this is a smart move as usually they have nothing for desktop except refreshes. @tilleroftheearth looking forward to see what intel can bring again by 2021.

    if true, golden cove 30% IPC over CFL while getting the good old 5ghz, its hard to settle for less now unless its a big difference in value and efficiency.
     
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