Question About P870TM CPU Options

Discussion in 'Sager and Clevo' started by Mister_Blue, Mar 13, 2018.

  1. Mister_Blue

    Mister_Blue Notebook Enthusiast

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    I'm considering buying the P870TM notebook which comes with several options in the CPU section including the possibility of opting out of choosing a CPU in addition to selecting an i5-8600k or i7-8700k both of which would be delidded, undervolted, and overclocked.

    Because I don't have any personal experience with those type of modifications, I would like to know the difference between choosing one of the above-mentioned options/modifications versus me purchasing an i7-8700 (non-k version) and installing it myself with a good quality thermal paste and not making any modifications.

    Although I don't know the math regarding what the above modifications will equal to in terms of final draw power, temps, threshold before throttling, etc., using logic, I assume that the i7-8700 would be somewhat equivalent in all aspects (performance, temperature, etc.) since its TDP is 65 (while the i7 k version has a TDP of 95).

    Are my assumptions correct? And am I correct in assuming that I wouldn't have to worry about temps of I was to install a non-k i7 that is not delidded or under volted?
     
  2. Arrrrbol

    Arrrrbol Notebook Evangelist

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    You can undervolt the 8700k to reduce the power draw. If you buy one from Eurocom or HIDEvolution that has been delidded with the unlocked BIOS etc you will not have issues with temperatures. The 8700 non K is not worth it imo. The 8700K will only draw 95W when its under full load on all cores, in regular use it wont.
     
  3. Danishblunt

    Danishblunt Notebook Prophet

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    GIve us an idea what your tasks are. Also the 65W TDP is only base frequency, meaning 3.6ghz. If it clocks to 4.2ghz its TDP is actually around 120.

    No. the non K is already a firing furnace in the notebook which consumes on base frequencies 95W, on turbo it's around 120-130W. The K's overclock is so limited that it's actually not worth using the 8700K in clevo notebooks unless you try to test how long a CPU and the Clevos VRMs will last under near thermal throttle threshhold.
     
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  4. Arrrrbol

    Arrrrbol Notebook Evangelist

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    That is true, the VRM is the only concern i'd have with that laptop as the CPU temps aren't that bad once its been delidded and undervolted. If i bought one of them i'd just make sure it had a good long warranty. If they used high quality VRM components then they should last at least a few years, but if they cheaped out of them then I definitely wouldn't buy one. If you really need a lot of CPU power though then its pretty much the only option sadly.

    If the OP doesn't actually need that much power then i'd suggest he looks for something with a different CPU.
     
  5. Mister_Blue

    Mister_Blue Notebook Enthusiast

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    Thanks Danishblunt and Arrrbol for the quick response. I will primarily be using the laptop for gaming and running virtual machines. The reason I focused on an i7 CPU is for longevity. But from your responses, it sounds like a desktop cpu in a laptop isn't going to last as long as it would in a regular desktop and it also sounds like you guys are saying that installing a modified i7-8700k carries similar risks as an unmodified non-k version of the same cpu. Am I right? EDIT: The reason I'm looking at notebooks with desktop cpus is also because (aside from power) I assumed the i7-8700 would last longer than an i7-8850H (whenever Intel decides to release it, which I assume will be within the next 3 months).

    Btw, I always thought that the TDP was the maximum possible for a cpu at stock settings (which is why I thought the non-k version would be safer, because I thought it would use less power than an under volted k version, causing lower temps and longer use as if it was installed in a desktop case).
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  6. Arrrrbol

    Arrrrbol Notebook Evangelist

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    I think Intel define the TDP as the average power consumption when all cores are fully loaded at the base clock, when turbo boost kicks in the power draw will be higher than the TDP.

    Could you clarify what you mean by long lasting? Do you mean long lasting physically in terms of the components or do you mean long lasting in the sense it will still perform well in several years? The new Intel mobile chips that are coming should have performance that will last many years, especially if you go for one of the overclockable ones. MSI may be worth looking at for them in a few months time. In terms of physically long lasting, the CPU its self is usually not the issue - but the rest of the components (VRM especially) are. The VRM on the P870TM will have a lot more power and heat to deal with than that on something with a mobile chip and will probably not last as long.
     
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  7. Mister_Blue

    Mister_Blue Notebook Enthusiast

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    I apologize for not being more specific in my previous reply. By long lasting, I mean both physically and in terms of its relevancy.

    But it sounds like a mobile cpu will last longer in a laptop than a desktop cpu since, from what you're saying, the VRM will be the determining factor of the lifespan of the laptop with a desktop cpu.

    On a side note, what do you think of the MSI cases compared to the Clevo cases? Which do you think have better cooling and features? (I don't really care about which looks better).
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  8. Arrrrbol

    Arrrrbol Notebook Evangelist

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    Yeah. Generally its the board components which fail rather than the chip (though there are exceptions). If you pick a good mobile CPU from a manufacturer which has high quality motherboards then you should be fine for many years, providing it has an upgradeable GPU which is more important for gaming. My Alienware M17x R2 is 8 years old this year and it should last me at least another couple of years once i've upgraded the GPU to something more powerful. The board has no signs of anything wrong (apart from my broken power button). I can understand your worries about soldered CPUs though as i'm not a fan of them myself. I'd rather have the peace of mind knowing that I can replace it if needs be, but considering my original i7 is still working its probably not all that important. Just make sure you get the best possible CPU when you buy and you should be good.
     
  9. Mister_Blue

    Mister_Blue Notebook Enthusiast

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    I'm happy to hear your CPU on that laptop is still running strong, that's very reassuring. On a side note, what do you think of the MSI cases compared to the Clevo cases? Which do you think have better cooling and features? (I don't really care about which looks better).
     
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  10. bennyg

    bennyg Notebook Deity

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    MSI cooling is ok on the GT73/75 apparently but the GT83 is a hot mess on the CPU and the leaks on the 6 core versions look similar.

    Clevo ridiculously overspec their VRMs on the P870 series. It's made for overclocking, it handles stock operation even of 8700K WITH EASE. Generally with anything mechanical or electrical, a lower % utilisation or duty cycle means improved longievity (think of the cumulative stress on a car's engine cruising down the highway at 1500rpm in 6th vs a tiny 3 cylinder revving its teats off at 6000rpm in 2nd to maintain the same speed)

    Ignore what Danishblunt has to say about TDP, he still doesn't understand what Intel Turboboost is and how it works. Yes power consumption is higher for a short time (this is NOT TDP but a power limit) but it is a time limited auto-overclock and is what turboboost is all about. Intel CPUs have been doing this for a decade now and are as reliable as ever.

    CPU failure is extremely rare. Motherboard VRM failure in high end Clevos is very rare, unless there is a defect in cooling (no thermal pad contact or degraded thermal pads for example). This is associated with the somewhat variable quality and care of the various resellers who assemble (and hopefully, test) your machine. Some bargain basement resellers don't care if their customers' units end up thermal throttling. Others, and I'm assuming the OP is referring to HID Evolution with their warrantied delid option, have a much much better reputation in this regard and will not ship you an overheating mess. You can request they delid and apply the liquid metal but leave it at stock multipliers and power limits if you wish.

    Delidding is basically only a temperature reduction by increasing the efficiency of the cooling solution. It has been done to many Intel CPU generations for many years now and there is no real risk, apart from damaging the CPU while doing it badly (which you're not). Reduced temperature (and the slightly reduced voltage that also leads to) means lower fan speeds and/or improved lifespan, or improved overclocking headroom.

    If you are after highest CPU performance possible, you can't get better than the Clevos with desktop chipsets. If you want more performance you have to feed a CPU more power to do the work, and the design of the Clevos being around overclocking a 95W desktop CPU means better thermals than laptops designed around 45W or 65W laptop CPUs trying to run a similar workload.

    Also the extra threads from the i7's are a must. Traditionally they have always been highly beneficial for all workloads and only worthless in games, but that is changing, and will continue to down the road. If you look at the last couple of generations the i5's are dropping off their performance much quicker than the hyperthreaded i7's
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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