Planes Thread

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Jarhead, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Jarhead

    Jarhead 恋の♡アカサタナ

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    It would take the FAA banning them, or in the case of Southwest, another shortage of mechanics.

    So far they haven't had any of their MAXes crash, soo....
     
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  2. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Was wondering why the "experienced" pilots didn't simply disable the autopilot as part of the response to the automatic dropping of the nose in response to sensor inputs:

    Pilots in U.S. have reported sudden tilt incidents with new Boeing jet
    https://www.cp24.com/world/pilots-i...-tilt-incidents-with-new-boeing-jet-1.4333220

    "...Airline pilots on at least two U.S. flights have reported that an automated system seemed to cause their Boeing 737 Max planes to tilt down suddenly.

    The pilots said that soon after engaging the autopilot on Boeing 737 Max 8 planes, the nose tilted down sharply. In both cases, they recovered quickly after disconnecting the autopilot.

    ...

    However, that anti-stall system -- called MCAS for its acronym -- only activates if the autopilot is turned off, according to documents Boeing has shared with airlines and the FAA.

    "That's not to say it's not a problem," American Airlines pilot Dennis Tajer said of the incidents reported to NASA, "but it is not the MCAS. The autopilot has to be off for MCAS to kick in."

    Ok, so the plane's nose drops on ascent, you can't get the plane's autopilot to stop dropping the nose - you can't gain altitude - so you disable the autopilot - and the behavior keeps happening...

    I am assuming the MCAS is taking over a subset of the function of the autopilot - as it would also try to correct the angle of attack given the Max 8's special needs - so maybe the pilots are fighting what is supposed to be happening?

    Maybe the right response is to let the plane's automatic stall recovery / prevention system to continue to follow it's designed programming - don't fight it? Probably lifting the nose / countering the MCAS / autopilot would feed into the problem rather than solving it?

    The other thing is, once you've turned off the autopilot and the same thing keeps happening, if you don't know about the MCAS, you wouldn't know the sequence to disable it as well - there are 2 things to disable to re-gain manual control.

    I heard the software change(s) are effectively to not over-react to pilot input... IDK if that's a good idea either.

    Either way there should have been some active notification of the MCAS system kicking in with the ability through a UI notification to disable the MCAS activity or allow it to recover / maintain the angle of attack.

    "Hands off the Yoke Man, I've got this..."- Autopilot / MCAS

    Just like car autodrive, the human needs to be split-second aware of the situation as if they were "driving" + be acutely aware of "stupid autodrive tricks", otherwise the time to recognize the danger to reacting will occur outside the effective response window.

    Otherwise you're gonna hit some one / some thing, or hit the ground.

    Pilots previously complained about Boeing 737 MAX 8
    At least five pilots have complained earlier in the US about problems with controlling a Boeing 737 MAX 8 during crucial moments in the air. American media report that.
    Foreign editors 13-03-19, 09:30 Last update: 11:37
    https://www.ad.nl/buitenland/piloten-klaagden-eerder-over-boeing-737-max-8~a4c27331/
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  3. killkenny1

    killkenny1 Too weird to live, too rare to die.

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    Well damn, apparently FAA banned 737 Max series as well...
     
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  4. saturnotaku

    saturnotaku Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Makes me wonder how truly "experienced" these pilots were. Were they properly trained in full manual operation of the aircraft? Not that Boeing doesn't deserve a heaping helping of culpability here, but there needs to be some investigation and possible reformation into the training of pilots.
     
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  5. cucubits

    cucubits Notebook Evangelist

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    Good, took them long enough. And it looks like they only did it because they were ordered from the president, if the news are accurate.

    Just imagine the ****storm boeing/FAA/AA/SW would have faced if another 737 went down. It's sad that a 2nd one needed to crash to start all this.
     
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  6. Jarhead

    Jarhead 恋の♡アカサタナ

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    Asking whether the computer should be in control or if the pilots should be in control is the age-old question that is being fought out between Airbus and Boeing :)
     
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  7. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Ralph Nader’s Grandniece Died in Ethiopian Plane Crash; Now He Is Urging Boycott of Boeing Jet
    Democracy Now!
    Published on Mar 13, 2019
    We speak with Ralph Nader, longtime consumer advocate, corporate critic and former presidential candidate. His great-niece, Samya Stumo, died on Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302. Nader wrote an open letter to Boeing titled “Passengers First, Ground the 737 MAX 8 Now!” And we speak with William McGee, aviation journalist for Consumer Reports. He is the author of “Attention All Passengers: The Airlines’ Dangerous Descent.”
    Calls are growing for the United States to ground all Boeing 737 MAX 8 planes in the wake of a devastating plane crash in Ethiopia Sunday that left 157 people dead. It is the aircraft model’s second fatal crash in the past five months. An Indonesian flight of the same plane type crashed last October, killing 189 people. In response, two-thirds of the 737 MAX 8s have been pulled from service. At least 41 countries across the globe, from China to Turkey to India, have grounded their fleets of the aircraft until a thorough safety review is conducted. Despite international outcry, the United States and Canada are continuing business as usual.


    Ralph Nader’s Grandniece Died in Ethiopian Plane Crash; Now He Is Urging Boycott of Boeing Jet
    MARCH 13, 2019
    https://www.democracynow.org/2019/3/13/ralph_naders_grandniece_died_in_ethiopian
     
  8. killkenny1

    killkenny1 Too weird to live, too rare to die.

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  9. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Off-Duty Pilot Saved Lion Air 737 Max One Day Before Doomed Flight
    Bloomberg Markets and Finance
    Published on Mar 20, 2019
    Mar.20 -- An off-duty pilot helped a Lion Air crew control a diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8 by diagnosing the problem with a malfunctioning flight-control system. The following day, the same aircraft crashed into the Java Sea with a different crew at the controls. Bloomberg's Chris Jasper reports on "Bloomberg Surveillance."
     
  10. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Interesting discovery? Hidden in this segment @02:55 is mention of an $80K safety "light" option left off some 737 Max aircraft? I didn't understand exactly what is missing based on their description, perhaps someone can point out what wasn't included in all planes - and if that option was missing from the 2 crashed aircraft?

    Justice Department demands Boeing documents on 737 Max approval process
    CBS News
    Published on Mar 22, 2019
    Investigators are looking into how Boeing's 737 Max jet got approved by the FAA and whether the company downplayed safety concerns, following two deadly crashes only months apart. CBS News transportation correspondent Kris Van Cleave joins CBSN with the latest.


    An interesting comparison is made between automotive and airplane autopilot...

    Pilots report issues with Boeing jet automation | The Weekly with Wendy Mesley

    CBC News
    Published on Mar 17, 2019
    Pilots have reported issues with Boeing's plane automation system, with one pilot complaining the flight manual is "almost criminally insufficient." Automation is introduced to save money and minimize human effort, but the crashes of two Boeing 737 Max 8 planes is re-framing the discussion. The Weekly finds hundreds of incident reports showing the trouble pilots are having with automation on their planes.
    To read more:https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ethiopia-airlines-crash-investigation-1.5054241
    http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...utopilot-division.808387/page-7#post-10886251
     
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