Planes Thread

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Jarhead, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Jarhead

    Jarhead Perfectly Sane

    Reputations:
    4,793
    Messages:
    11,775
    Likes Received:
    2,320
    Trophy Points:
    581
    Hmscott, you're actually incorrect about the contract on your ticket. If you actually read your ticket's fine print (serious, go do this next time you fly), you will find a clause along the lines of "we can change which one of our airplanes you board". They are required per law to compensate you for this inconvenience (FAA 14 CFR 250.5). In addition to this, the airline (or rather, captain) has the ultimate authority on who is and is not allowed on their airplane (FAA 14 CFR Part 91.3). It's fine to have moral outrage, but it needs to be checked against facts of the matter.

    So no, no airline passenger has the right to keep their seat. They do have the right to be compensated for losing their seat, however.
     
    DukeCLR likes this.
  2. Jarhead

    Jarhead Perfectly Sane

    Reputations:
    4,793
    Messages:
    11,775
    Likes Received:
    2,320
    Trophy Points:
    581
    hmscott likes this.
  3. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

    Reputations:
    3,015
    Messages:
    11,865
    Likes Received:
    13,661
    Trophy Points:
    931
    Then my challenge of their request should have resulted in them telling me I didn't have a choice, right?

    Instead they actually verbally told me "they can't force me to give up my seat".

    I think that clause says the Airline can "ask" you to change your flight arrangement to accommodate their needs, but they can't actually "force" you to give up your seat unwillingly.

    It's also possible the clause you are thinking of is to cover the airline in case of a plane failure - so they can herd everyone to another physical plane to make the same scheduled departure - late but close to the original schedule.

    And, it doesn't apply to the situation of an individual request.

    That's why I asked @DukeCLR to check, verify, the details.

    You could double check too... I am not flying or going near an airport any time soon, otherwise I would check :)
     
    DukeCLR likes this.
  4. Jarhead

    Jarhead Perfectly Sane

    Reputations:
    4,793
    Messages:
    11,775
    Likes Received:
    2,320
    Trophy Points:
    581
    Yeah, I have no idea why anyone on that plane said they can't kick you out of your seat, because the law contradicts them.

    Before getting deeper into FAA regulations, I'll take a philosophical guess as to why they are allowed to force you off. That Boeing that United (actually Republic; I didn't realize it was a subcontracted regional flight, but same rules apply) owns is the private property of the airline. The US has a strong stance on private property rights, including the right against others using said property. In the same reason why you and I have the right to have someone leave our house or our car, an airline should have the right to have someone leave their aircraft. Another idea that comes to mind is that the operators of the aircraft (or any other transportation method) have a responsibility (legal, as well as ethical) to keep their passengers safe; if the reports on this particular passenger being unruly are true, this philosophy could apply since he would then be a danger to the remaining passengers. Finally, and specific to airliners, is imagine that the explosion of security and paranoia after 9/11 could pay a part in why such a passenger would be treated as such.

    --------

    Most of the nitty-gritty I know about commercial/private aircraft operation comes from lurking on the Avaiation StackExchange, and interestingly enough there aren't a lot of questions pertaining to the United issue. I've already listed two relevant CFRs in my last comment, though if I find more I'll post.
     
  5. Jarhead

    Jarhead Perfectly Sane

    Reputations:
    4,793
    Messages:
    11,775
    Likes Received:
    2,320
    Trophy Points:
    581
    Just to clarify my two cents: assuming he wasn't posing a threat, I don't think that passenger should have been subjected to such violence. However, that's an issue to take up with the city of Chicago, not the airline.
     
    hmscott likes this.
  6. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

    Reputations:
    3,015
    Messages:
    11,865
    Likes Received:
    13,661
    Trophy Points:
    931
    It looks like the same rules are in place as it was when this happened to me:
    If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than there are seats available), no one may be denied boarding against his or her will until airline personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservation willingly, in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with the following boarding priority of American. In such events, American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the AAdvantage® program.

    If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of ‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ from the airline unless:
    1. You have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
    2. You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
    3. You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons; or
    4. On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
    5. You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
    6. The airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the planned arrival time of your original flight
    Domestic transportation
    Passengers traveling between points within the United States (including the territories and possessions) who are denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight are entitled to:
    1. No compensation if the carrier offers alternate transportation that is planned to arrive at the passenger’s destination or first stopover not later than one hour after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight;
    2. 200% of the fare to the passenger’s destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $675, if the carrier offers alternate transportation that is planned to arrive at the passenger’s destination or first stopover more than one hour but less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight; and
    3. 400% of the fare to the passenger’s destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $1,350, if the carrier does not offer alternate transportation that is planned to arrive at the airport of the passenger’s destination or first stopover less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight
    • 0 to 1 hour arrival delay - no compensation
    • 1 to 2 hour arrival delay - 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
    • Over 2 hours arrival delay - 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)
    International transportation
    Passengers traveling from the United States to a foreign point who are denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight originating at a U.S. airport are entitled to:
    1. No compensation if the carrier offers alternate transportation that is planned to arrive at the passenger’s destination or first stopover not later than one hour after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight;
    2. 200% of the fare to the passenger’s destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $675, if the carrier offers alternate transportation that is planned to arrive at the passenger’s destination or first stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight; and
    3. 400% of the fare to the passenger’s destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $1,350, if the carrier does not offer alternate transportation that is planned to arrive at the airport of the passenger’s destination or first stopover less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight
    • 0 to 1 hour arrival delay - no compensation
    • 1 to 4 hour arrival delay - 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
    • Over 4 hours arrival delay - 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)

    Immediately obvious to me is that these rules apply to "pre-boarding" requests, not to people already boarded and seated on the plane awaiting travel to their destination.

    Once I was on the plane, boarded and seated, they couldn't "involuntarily" remove me from my seat.

    They actually said as much "we can't force you to give up your seat".

    Sorry I can't quite remember their original quote, but at the time it was like a jolt of lightening vindication for my decision to hold onto my seat, they could only ask me to willingly give up my seat - they couldn't force me to give it up.

    Once you are onboard and seated, it's your seat.

    It's only if there is a mechanical failure with the plane and everyone is asked to move to another plane that can they "force" you to leave - or you'll miss your flight ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
    DukeCLR likes this.
  7. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

    Reputations:
    3,015
    Messages:
    11,865
    Likes Received:
    13,661
    Trophy Points:
    931
    Re-read the section of the ticket rules you linked, that I quoted in my last post, the "involuntary giving up of your boarding a flight" is only for pre-boarding, once you are on board the plane and seated, they can't force you to give up your seat.
     
    DukeCLR likes this.
  8. Jarhead

    Jarhead Perfectly Sane

    Reputations:
    4,793
    Messages:
    11,775
    Likes Received:
    2,320
    Trophy Points:
    581
    Hmmm, it seems the FAA would still disagree with that idea unless you're willing to argue that handling passengers is not part of the operation of a passenger-carrying commercial aircraft...

    I'm also curious to hear back from an actual commercial pilot, though as far as my understanding goes a passenger can neither have the right to a particular seat nor disobey flight crew. Of course, IANAL.
     
    DukeCLR and hmscott like this.
  9. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

    Reputations:
    3,015
    Messages:
    11,865
    Likes Received:
    13,661
    Trophy Points:
    931
    That's a general order of command of those aboard an aircraft, not a ticketing rights statement.

    The people asking me if I would kindly give up my seat were the ticketing and flight ticketing coordinators, not the Pilot.

    A passenger is not "posing a threat" by declining the Airlines kind offer to compensate them if they give up their seat. So the Pilot doesn't need to get involved.

    This confusion of authority, and who is asking you to give up your seat, might be exactly what confuses so many people into giving up their seat.

    When they are in no way involuntarily compelled to do so they mistakenly believe they have no choice but to give up their seat.

    Once you are boarded and seated, it's your seat, and your decision alone to voluntarily give it up.

    If you do voluntarily give up your seat, and disembark the plane, it's all over, you've given up your seat voluntarily and you need to go through the "boarding process" all over again.

    At that point there are no seats on the plane for you, so you need to follow the Airlines instructions to get your compensation, their offered overnight accommodation if the next flight is enough hours in the future, and booking on the next available flight to your destination.

    The key is to know your rights and to stand by them in a situation where someone is trying to convince you to voluntarily give up your seat, and to know the difference between a voluntary request and an involuntary demand.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
    DukeCLR likes this.
  10. DukeCLR

    DukeCLR Notebook Deity

    Reputations:
    207
    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    1,125
    Trophy Points:
    181
    I'll try to find some details, the Ground security coordinator,GSC, is ultimately in charge until the door closes, obviously there we work together to operate. I'm about to get on the jump seat so I won't be able to get info yet, I'll try to ask a gate agent at AA to see what fars they use

    Great thread...



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Jarhead and hmscott like this.
Loading...

Share This Page