*Official* NBR Desktop Overclocker's Lounge [laptop owners welcome, too]

Discussion in 'Desktop Hardware' started by Mr. Fox, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. Papusan

    Papusan JOKEBOOKs Sucks! Dont waste your $$$ on FILTHY

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    Be happy your best overclock being all cores boost at best case. Of course you can overclock Ryzen chips and that clock speed will scale with voltage and cold, but you'll need exotic cooling. Maybe we finally will see LN2 in all homes where you find (OC) enthusiasts who want eak out more than stock boost clocks on all cores:D Chilled water works bro @Mr. Fox. But I'm not so sure you would be happy with barely +stock boost on all cores:p
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    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  2. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    Well, that's why OCing is dying. Do you think Intel isn't working on a boost algo now? Nvidia has had boost since Maxwell or maybe it was Kepler (can't remember). Took them the better part of a decade to make it where OC doesn't do much. AMD took like 3 generations. Intel will do it with rocket lake, possibly, then will have it good within a gen or so of that (not good as in it is a good thing, but good as in it functions well).

    For Ryzen, a 360, 420, or 480 rad likely is where diminishing returns will happen on an open loop. You should have a good 50-100MHz over CLC users. But hoping for a good bin will matter more. This is why the hobby is dying.

    But, even though frequency isn't going to be going up, and signs point to lower frequency with future smaller nodes, IPC will become a bigger battle ground, along with adding in ASICs for specific tasks being included as a chiplet alongside normal core chiplets. And that is where Intel truly is ahead of AMD, having bought FPGA IP, hiring AMD's AI engineers along with others from the industry, etc.

    And, yes, for competing on OCing, a water chiller will become the price of entry. Welcome to a brave new world.
     
  3. Papusan

    Papusan JOKEBOOKs Sucks! Dont waste your $$$ on FILTHY

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    Boost algo doesn't necessarily means Intel will close the door in same way as AMD. And none know how newer Intels chips will be.

    Intel also takes overclocking very seriously. It has a dedicated OC lab where technicians track silicon quality, voltage scaling and long-term stress testing results. All this information is used to develop better processors for regular consumers. The company is very supportive of extreme overclockers, because can showcase these processors in a environment without the normal limits of heat and cooling. We can give them an idea of what internal voltages are scaling and how much is too much, which can help them to improve future products.Tomshardware, by Allen 'Splave' Golibersuch



    One thing for sure... 1700X. 2700X and now 3xxxX sucks for overclocking. Or shall we say Ryzen?

    Silicon Lottery Overclocks Most AMD Ryzen 9 3950X Samples to 4.1 GHz tomshardware.com | today

    Isn't 3950X 4.7GHz on single core?

    upload_2019-12-10_19-4-11.png
     
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  4. Robbo99999

    Robbo99999 Notebook Prophet

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    I think @ajc9988 is viewing it like it is. We don't have to like it when it comes to overclocking, but it does seem logical. I'll still be carefully considering cooling solutions for future builds though as any of the boosting is still gonna be related to that, and no doubt I would try manual overclocking vs using any automatic boost algorithms to see if there's any performance gains vs increased power consumption/temperatures...then I'd make my decisions on settings to use. It makes the process less exciting because there's less excess performance on the table for enthusiasts, but I can see why it's becoming like that.

    One thing that is exciting though is the 'fact' that NVidia (&AMD) are gonna be using multiple chips on their GPUs in the future - and I hope they create a product line where they go nuts for enthusiasts by incorporating 'many' dies and many many cores that can allow for some massive power consumption & performance if cooled properly.....then I hope they sell this product line at reduced stock clocks to fit within a competent air cooling solution.....but then the enthusiasts (& 3rd party sellers) can take those same cards and slap some custom water cooling on there to allow the silicon to be taken to their maximum limits of silicon stability (like how we know Pascal is often 2050-2100Mhz limited when it comes to the pure ability of the silicon)......so essentially they'd be selling them underclocked so as to just about fit within normal cooling, but then they would be able to thrive under enthusiast cooling.......I'd also be hoping that this massive GPU enthusiast line wouldn't be too expensive as producing products using multiple chips is cheaper than producing one large silicon chip.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  5. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    Funny, you say the company that misleads the 5GHz 3175 chip supports and prefers overclockers. Lmao.

    And yes, an algorithm, by definition, means they leave less on the table. They already showed with the 9900KS they reduced average overclocked to 5%, as I already showed. So you think if they are willing to do that now with pegged speeds they won't use the algo to automatically Max performance, which is what their software does for auto OC, which will wind up being moved onto the CPU and firmware? Are you kidding me?

    Also, guess what? You have LN2 OCers saying Ryzen is fun to OC. Look at Joe S.

    They chase numbers. They don't care which company they come from. They don't always care if it is a lower frequency if you are getting world records.

    So this bull on "must love Intel" and "Intel is for OCers" ignores changing industry trends. You want to OC, buy a chiller. That is where this is going.

    Not everything is about clocks, and due to IPC differences, a 5.3GHz AMD clock is like an Intel 5.8 clock, depending on the task. Go pour over the world records. AMD has more than they possibly ever had.

    Further, guess what? Nvidia with boost uses OCers, along with EVGA. AMD does too. They regularly sample lucky noob (Alva). So why are you acting like Intel is unique in that regard?

    Edit: and on silicon lottery, two things. First, that is all core. Second, they test with AVX2 workloads and you darn well know what frequency they sell it at is not the top frequency. Instead that is the frequency and voltage they found stable within their cooling solution. So stop the crap!
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  6. Papusan

    Papusan JOKEBOOKs Sucks! Dont waste your $$$ on FILTHY

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    If you read the link.... Not mine words. The authors. The same one as this link https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-core-i9-9900ks-world-records

    The new and shiny 8 cores from AMD. Without the IPC gains from newest arch this would look ugly https://hwbot.org/submission/4212447_hardware_numb3rs_cinebench___r15_ryzen_7_3800x_2907_cb
    Of corse I know you can eak out more from SL chips with better cooling:rolleyes:

    A few results can be find in my link above. Not that I say this is SL chips. But you can see the direction:)
     
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  7. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    Let's put this in perspective: less than 10% of people that buy K series chips overclock them. Period. Then, less than 1% of those do LN2. So you are literally pointing to only one LN2 OCer and acting like it represents the market. You also are ignoring the fact that most on AMD are getting 5-10% on OC whereas Intel's new chips have 5% for the average person OCing the 9900KS.

    If you care to be oblivious that most don't have chillers or cascade or LN2, that's on you. If you can't recognize how few people care, so be it. All Intel has at this moment is OEM and system integrators. And when Intel moves to chiplets, there goes the benefit of ring bus, but they will use active interposers which is better than MCM.

    I'm done trying to explain it to you. Look at DIY sales numbers from different retailers. Intel is literally selling only around 20%. Yet they still can't produce enough chips, generally, and are resurrecting 22nm Haswell now. This is causing OEMs to start looking into AMD, which simply underestimated demand. Intel's shortage is expected to H2 2020. AMD should have it alleviated before then and have Zen 3 by then. Comet lake is still a skylake rehash due in April, while rocket lake is supposedly a port of Willow cove to 14nm++++.

    And AMD announced Zen 4 is on track for 2021, TSMC says 5nm is already over 50% yields with 1.8X density over 7nm and 3nm is on track for 2022 volume production.

    Where's Intel's 7nm news and what yields are they getting? Intel's 7nm is about equal to TSMC 5nm. Are they at 50% already and ready for volume in 2020 like TSMC? Doubtful considering they won't even tell yields in 10nm, which was at 12% a year ago and they say they have improvements on it, but won't give yields data, so likely high teens to twenties on yields.

    You are so blinded with your arguments, you are missing that Intel is stagnant on process. Look at the speed of ice lake, which uses more power than even their 14nm comet lake parts, which on desktop would likely have frequencies roughly in line with AMD, which that low of frequency eats up all IPC improvement.

    So enjoy what you are saying now, because nothing I've seen says this will last.
     
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  8. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox BGA Filth-Hating Elitist

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    It is totally evident that we agree on more than we disagree. I'm just not liking the direction that things might be turning (ultimately remains to be seen) and if I can't have things the way I like them I will simply find something else to enjoy. It's all voluntary and all about doing something you find enjoyable. It's difficult for me to get excited about overclocking using new tech in a scenario where the cost/effort to benefit ratio sucks. It's really more about how they have designed things and decisions that are being made by people that are occupying positions that afford them the autonomy to make those decisions based on what they deem is the best approach.

    I handle things like this the same way I handle politics. I exercise my right to vote no with my wallet the same way I use a ballot. If my vote doesn't produce an outcome I want it to, I am still under no obligation to embrace the result. I am free to reject the outcome and continue to stand in opposition to it, and there is a sense of satisfaction in doing so. And, doing that deprives those who are being resisted (or rejecting the products they are offering) some measure of success and satisfaction in the process. The continued resistance inflicts a degree of harm financially and/or psychologically. So, it's still a partial win in that respect. They can say it doesn't matter, but to an extent it actually does matter because they are not enjoying the same level of success they would have if everyone was drinking their Kool-Aid. You know it irks them whether they will admit it or not. Nobody enjoys being viewed as inferior or repulsive, even if it is on a small enough scale that they are able to survive or thrive in spite of it.

    This is not a small margin though. Not sure I can be content with the concept of needing LN2 to hit 30-40%.

    https://hwbot.org/submission/4157385_mr._fox_3dmark11___performance_geforce_rtx_2080_ti_45041_marks
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    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  9. jaybee83

    jaybee83 Biotech-Doc

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    i guess that depends on what your baseline is. if base clock then sure, its +90%. but if its stock all core boost at 3.6 ghz for the 7960x, then ure at +47%.

    Sent from my Huawei Mate 20 X EVR-AL00 using Tapatalk
     
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  10. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    Never said I'm happy about this. I've been coming to terms with losing my hobby for awhile now. It sucks! And if I'm right on Intel with boost, with Willow cove on rocket lake getting around 18-26% IPC (estimate based on sunny cove cores giving 18% IPC on skylake and Intel saying Willow does not focus on ST performance, meaning likely a lower IPC gain), being built on 14nm++++ (so high clocks, but lower core count than comet lake), but competing with Zen 3 with 10-17% more IPC (current rumor is 10% integer, up to 50% floating point, but only 17% in mixed workloads) or Zen 4, Intel may have an FX moment for one year. That scares me because no company should deal with that! (It should be equal with Zen 3, but lower than Zen 4, so depends on when rocket lake would get released versus AMDs release schedule).

    In fact, in having to come to terms with deciding to buy something for my use cases instead of overpowering them because of oc dying and boost.

    Intel may never get those high speeds again and future shrinks may take the speed lower. TSMC barely figured out how to get the speed they did for Zen 2 and ice lake speeds SUCK right now and are 1GHz lower than 14nm.

    I will still tune my hardware, but competing might dwindle for me just because there won't be much for me to so until I go exotic. I was hoping Zen 2 would drop in and be like a last hoorah before things get so optimized there was nothing to do (AMD killed that hope by requiring a new MB).

    I do think beyond 2022 Intel will become more competitive, just hope they solve their process issues, otherwise we go down to two major fabs: Samsung and TSMC. And then that means less variety.

    And I do apologize if slightly prickish about breaking this news. I also am losing my hobby and it is rough. If I saw the industry headed a different way, you know I'd say so. So I do apologize if coming off as crass here. Consider it grieving.
     
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