*Official* NBR Desktop Overclocker's Lounge [laptop owners welcome, too]

Discussion in 'Desktop Hardware' started by Mr. Fox, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    Correct there, and Asus is awful at over tightening some timings, but does offer multiple modes with extremely tight, then tight. I had to use the tight (mode 2) on my Maximus VIII Extreme to get 4000 set, and it took a specific BIOS revision, and the moon and stars aligning at the solstice, and blah blah blah.

    Those timings though are not just the subtimings we can play with to a degree, and I def miss some of the ram timings available on the Asus board now that I'm using Asrock, but you are correct that those can make a difference.
     
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  2. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox BGA Filth-Hating Elitist

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    Bottom line is, I could have happily lived without this experience and had no desire to understand how another motherboard fares in comparison. But, when someone tosses a lemon in our path we make lemonade, right? I wish the new firmware was not screwed up--an unfortunate issue that plagues the industry as a whole--and wish I had no reason to waste any of my money on a temporary substitute motherboard. As they say, "make a wish in one hand, poop in the other, and see which hand gets filled up first."

    I don't think I could have asked for better results than what I was getting with the Maximus X Hero, as they are phenomenal. It will be nice if the Taichi can match the CPU and RAM overclocking results, and it will be good for others to know (at my expense, LOL) since it is less expensive. As long as I get back a fully functional Maximus X Hero in a reasonable time frame I will be satisfied. That (ASUS warranty service) will be as interesting to me as whether or not the Taichi can match its performance. In a perfect world I would have no reason to find out either thing. As I was exploring options, there were not many good ones. End user reviews/results on EVGA Classified K Z370 (an option I considered) and Taichi Z370 mobos were mixed and hard to make any intelligence of. Impossible to know if that relates more to product quality control or user error and inexperience.
     
  3. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    When I went from Z170 to X399, I tried figuring which boards to get. Asus has AMAZING hardware. They are screwing up on firmware. Have been for awhile and at OCN, the owners of the Zenith Extreme describe their board as perpetual beta due to the firmware. Giga has literally fried 2000 series and 1000 series Ryzens and is giga, amiright? MSI, I'm leaving it there. So, I went with Asrock as they had a decent hardware PCB and did well with the Z170 OC Formula, so I figured they were back. Except for a couple BIOS/UEFI updates, generally I've enjoyed the board, even if the BIOS is BASIC AF! That part annoys the crap out of me and they left the advanced CBS settings in hex rather than normal inputs. INFURIATING. But, aside from those things, it has performed solid for me. Would I buy Asrock again? With the info at release for X399, no doubt. But, if there was, say, an EVGA Dark X399, no contest, I'd be with the EVGA (if like the x299 Dark).

    But, with what is coming, I will say I want to see the VRM setups on future TR2 boards because they are about to get beefy as hell. Also wanting to see some monoblocks shaped like a hammer to cool these chips and the upcoming 3746 or whatever pin count from Intel (although those boards and chips will be so expensive, I wouldn't recommend them to anyone but enthusiast OCers, not even for pro workstations).

    Also, I don't know if Asrock did any better, but they did recently update their Z370 firmware, so if having a problem with Asus, you could either turn into the skid to see if Asrock did any better, or avoid it like the plague! Dealer's choice.
     
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  4. Robbo99999

    Robbo99999 Notebook Prophet

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    Been researching a little about CPU degradation due to my slight fears I might be seeing it in mine. Post #4 in the following thread is a really good account & extrapolation of some guys actual degradation tests of 3 different 7700K CPUs:
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-intel-cpus/1673657-cpu-overvolt-death-degradation-stories.html
    The crux of that post is that you will definitely lose a really tight overclock at 1.45V after close to a year (10,000hrs) because the actual extrapolation (graph) is showing a 5mv degredation at 1.45V after only 1000hrs and he was using a x10 uncertainty factor to allow himself to use the word 'definitely' - so likely to lose 5mv of stability after only 1000 hours of use. His same extrapolation graph shows 5mv of degradation after 10,000 hrs when at 1.4V. I run my 6700K at 1.4V and for just over a year, and I've seen instability recently - this makes me think I should go into BIOS and see if I've only lost in the region of 5mv of stability, ie does adding 5mv regain stability. If I test that and 5mv does regain stability then this would match his extrapolation - thereby increasing the likelihood that my recent CPU instability has been caused by degradation & less by the new BIOS - plus it's an easier test for me to perform rather than going back to the old BIOS. I'll test it now to see how much voltage I need to gain stability - well maybe not right now as it's getting late, maybe tomorrow.

    The other crux of his post was that you really shouldn't run your CPU at 1.5V and certainly not at 1.55V under any circumstances.

    EDIT: bloody hell, what do you know, I went ahead & did that testing, and adding 10mv in the BIOS which equates to 8mv actual increase has given me back 20min OCCT stability, which is the ultimate harshest test I've been using to dial in an overclock. Here's the screenshot:
    4.6Ghz new overclock.jpg
    This equates quite accurately with that guys CPU degradation test extrapolations. On the basis of this I'm long term dialing down my overclock from 4.7Ghz to 4.6Ghz with voltage decreasing from 1.4V to 1.35V during that move. Also, based on that guys extrapolation graph, by decreasing 50mv from 1.4V to 1.35V I'm reducing any further degradation rates by a factor of 10, which should make further CPU degradation a thing of the past essentially. I've done this because I want my CPU to survive another 3+ yrs without having to dial down the overclock again as the years go by. I have a feeling that staying at 4.7Ghz and 1.4V would have meant increasing voltage more & more year on year, and 1.4V was my previous max voltage limit I allowed myself so it would have been a no win situation with ever decreasing losses. I'd urge people who are using 1.4V for their CPU (Skylake onwards) to dial down to a max of 1.35V if you want to keep your CPU for 3+ years.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  5. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox BGA Filth-Hating Elitist

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    Well, maybe. I think it depends on perspective. The nice thing about running a K-series gamer-boy CPU instead of a HEDT processor is they are comparatively inexpensive, good samples overclock nicely, and they are almost always readily available at a local retail store like Fry's, Micro-Center or even Best Buy. If you're not in a hurry, vendors such B&H Photo, NewEgg and eBay (or forums like here and OC.net marketplace) can be even cheaper.

    I consider the K series CPUs to be somewhat of a consumable product. If you are replacing a last generation CPU (like 6700K and 7700K - and soon 8700K) with another one just like it they are obsolete, but plentiful and relatively inexpensive. If overclocking is your thing and you really enjoy that, it amounts to about $1 per day over the course of a year if you wear it out in only 12 months. If you don't wear it out that fast even less. So, I don't worry about it a whole lot. If I were running an expensive TR or Intel HEDT processor, I would have to think harder about CPU degradation due to the financial implications that go along with it. For the same reason I am a lot more careful with my 1080 Ti than my CPU. Thankfully, now than the miner fad is fading, availability is not as problematic and costs are normalizing. But, even at normal retail prices 1080 Ti is very expensive and warrants some caution unless you have more money than you know what to do with.
     
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  6. Robbo99999

    Robbo99999 Notebook Prophet

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    Yes, I get that, I understand where you're coming from.


    I've just now edited my previous post with that overclock testing I was talking about - to see if my potential degree of CPU degradation married with the extrapolations of that guy that did the CPU degradation testing I was talking about in my previous post - I found out it does.
     
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  7. Papusan

    Papusan JOKEBOOKs Sucks! Dont waste your $$$ on FILTHY

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    People forget that they can sell the K-series chips they are not happy with and buy a new one (same model or upgrade if it's possible). I sold my +3 years old 6700K right before my summer vacation and got half of the price it costed new.
     
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  8. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    There are multiple factors that feed into transistor degredation, with voltage and heat being the primary ones. I ran my chip at 1.56 for 5.1GHz, but short runs and well cooled. Meanwhile, 4.8 going strong at 1.43 with the ring at 4.5 I believe it was. But, it is practically under no stress ever now, which I need the high frequency on single core for its primary use case. But, since never hitting full load and not really stressing even the single core, not nearly as concerned with these findings, to be honest. Might be if still using it for my workstation, though.

    Edit: Nearly forgot to mention the problems of voltage spikes on Intel's side and the hard spike and dip when coming under load or finishing and the odd random spike on Kaby processors which caused Intel to say not to OC. Gotta be aware of those and the voltage changes related to LLC. It is VERY important in the degradation by voltage if trying to do too high a voltage for a daily driver.

    All the more reason to buy a binned chip. Got one from SL, it takes 1.35V to do 4.1GHz on all cores. I usually run 4.05GHz on 1.2875V. Truly a beast. And the voltage is damn near linear with 1.1825V for 3.95, 1.2275 or so for 4GHz. It is keeping the heat down under major loads that is the issue if you get a binned chip, rather than the voltage and degradation from voltage. Hell, I can even keep the wattage at those voltages mostly under 250W, plus with my VRM on water, they stay around 40C on load, so I'm getting nice, smooth power delivery to boot. So, if you go for HEDT, get either the top bin or second to top and you won't be disappointed.

    My next project when I clean my loop is to remove all my rads, create plastic brackets to screw them together (local library has a 3D printer at a low cost), then to attach them to a box fan and use the 5000 BTU window unit to blow directly through them with a 20" fan in pull. I'll also be reseating the CPU block, making sure the jet plate is right, etc., because my temps seem higher than others at the same frequency with them using more volts (but, my scores are equivalent with someone running 50-150MHz higher than me on all cores, so, I'm still doing something right, including the above average ram speed (mostly lucky IMC, I'm sure)). Before we got the window unit, I had to go to 3.95GHz for my daily driver to control the summer heat in this room.
     
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  9. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox BGA Filth-Hating Elitist

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    Looking forward to seeing photos of that.

    Have seen these? Might work nice with a box fan. Or, even two box fans in push/pull. :vbwink:
    Phobya 1080: http://www.performance-pcs.com/phobya-xtreme-nova-1080-9-x-120mm-radiator.html

    Phobya 1260: https://www.aquatuning.us/water-coo...ya-xtreme-supernova-1260-radiator-full-copper
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  10. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    Hadn't seen that, but I already have 3x480s (GTX Black Ice Nemesis on all three of the 480s). If I had something like that frame for 480s, I'd grab it in a heartbeat as a nice external frame. Later on I plan on getting a number of quick releases for the loop and rads so that I can just take apart any segment of the loop whenever I see fit. I think I need six of them for my loop: 2 so that I have one on each side of the rads, 2 for the graphics card, then two on the CPU block. My VRM are separate blocks in between the CPU and GPU currently, so the one on the CPU and GPU would allow me to pull that section on its own. I have 2 MCP50X pumps in the loop, so no worries on them restricting flow.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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