*OFFICIAL* Alienware m15 Owner's Lounge

Discussion in '2015+ Alienware 13 / 15 / 17' started by ssj92, Oct 25, 2018.

  1. CptXabaras

    CptXabaras Overclocked, Overvolted, Liquid Cooled

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    Didn't absolutely mean to sound as personally attacking your statements on the argument, if my post did sound so, i do apologize.
     
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  2. etern4l

    etern4l Notebook Deity

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    No worries, I didn't mean to suggest any offence on my part (none was taken) nor did I mean to cause any. Just a bit of a heated argument on a hot topic :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  3. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox Undefiled BGA-Hating Elitist

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    Yeah, the fear of liquid metal is largely displaced. Other than the hazard associated with being sloppy and allowing it get onto something to cause an electrical short, there is no reason for anyone to fear it or avoid it. Being sloppy is going to surface sooner or later anyhow... if not with liquid metal, then something else. Being cautious and deliberate is important with all things where a good outcome matters. The people that are so dead set against it either don't actually need it or they are misinformed. The "stain" it causes to copper is irrelevant.
     
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  4. etern4l

    etern4l Notebook Deity

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    You lost me at "largely".

    How cautious and deliberate does one need to get? Do I need an industrial robotic arm to perfectly reseat the sink? Do I need some sort of probe to examine the dam for imperfections that might cause it to fail? Do I need a clean room for this?

    As for the copper sink reaction, it's not clear it's as inoccuous as you portray. For one thing it, the copper reaction causes the TIM layer itself to deteriorate. For another, it's not clear whether manufacturers would view the presence of LM alloy kindly during warranty repairs.

    https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/1028665-warning-about-using-liquid-metal-from-thermal-grizzly/

    Apparently, Conductonaut works best with nickel-plated sinks.

    Again, it's all good if people proceed to use LM with a clear view of the benefits this will bring given their particular usage patterns, as well as very good understanding of the additional effort needed, along with the risks and downsides.
     
  5. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox Undefiled BGA-Hating Elitist

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    I've been using it for years with no issues and so have many others. So, yeah, "largely" is the right word. If results improve, and no damage occurs due to misuse, and it continues working well for many years, no point in being a worry wort. User induced damage of any kind is not covered under a warranty, but a warranty isn't predicated on using a particular product for thermal paste. If they are going to do that it needs to be in writing. The benefits of using it are clear and unmistakable, and for those who have benefited as greatly as many of us have, the risks are very small and most definitely worth it. The only real risks are applying it to aluminum or getting it on electrical contacts.

    But, it's good to know what the risks are, and I wouldn't recommend anyone that does things in a haphazard manner or has a knack for screwing things up go into the situation thinking it is an idiot-proof proposition. It's not idiot-proof, but it's definitely worth doing if you want the best results.

    Those considering using it also need to know that it will not be useful or beneficial if their heat sink fit is sloppy. Liquid metal cannot be used to plug gaps and their temps will be worse, not better, if their parts do not fit correctly. That kind of nonsense can only be partially accommodated by using a really heavy thermal compound like IC Diamond or Phobya Nanogrease Extreme. Gelid, Kryonaut, NTH1 and all of the similarly thin and creamy thermal pastes will also produce poor results with sloppy fitting heat sinks. (They may be good for a short time, but won't last very long if the fit is sloppy.) In fact, if you get decent long term results with those thin and creamy thermal pastes, you likely have an ideal candidate for liquid metal.

    Repasting with CooLaboratory Liquid Ultra, any tips before I start?
    [​IMG]
    [Liquid Metal & Traditional Paste] - Clevo P775DM2/3(-G)/P75xDM2(-G) (Sager NP9152/NP9172)

     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  6. etern4l

    etern4l Notebook Deity

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    OK, so your argument is basically: anyone who has experienced an issue with LM had it applied by a clumsy idiot. Nice.
    Also, not clear manufacturers need to specify every single user action that might have led to damage in writing. If the mobo is bricked or malfunctioning and there is obvious evidence of LM use, they would have an easy time assigning the blame to the user.

    Regarding longevity, since we've skipped that thread, apparently LM needs frequent re-application in copper sink setups, even as often as every few months, due to the ongoing alloying process. Not particularly convenient, is it?

    The temps you posted basically corroborate what @custom90gt said earlier about the difference in temps vs non-conductive paste often ending up being minor (that said, I'm super impressed by @CptXabaras 's results!). The major temp drop comes from deliding.

    Anyway, thanks for the info on traditional pastes - another data point in support of Phobya on predominantly poor fitting laptop heatsinks. Has anyone tried it on the m15 and can post some CB20 temps?
     
  7. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox Undefiled BGA-Hating Elitist

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    Nope, didn't say that. Smart people can make stupid mistakes. Lord knows that I've made my fair share of them. That's not the fault of the product. It's called user error and it is quite common. But, it is absolutely true that clumsy idiots definitely shouldn't use liquid metal. In fact, they shouldn't work on their PC at all. Anyone that is a clumsy idiot would be demonstrating proper awareness of their shortcomings by paying someone that isn't (hopefully) a clumsy idiot to do the work.
    If you are dealing with a dishonest manufacturer that is looking for a way to screw their customers and finding creative ways to make up stupid reasons to shirk their responsibility, maybe so. They are few and far between, and there would be no reason for them to blame the user unless the user applied the product in a way that actually caused the damage. It's not ethical or legal to arbitrarily void the warranty simply because they do not approve of the choice of products their customers elect to use. As much as it might not seem like it sometimes, most of them are smart enough to know that. It has to be relevant to be relevant.
    This is totally false. It outlasts ordinary thermal pastes by an extremely wide margin, which has been proven time and again by many veteran liquid metal users in the enthusiast ranks. The exception is when the fit is poor. It will definitely dry out and fail, but not really any faster than most of the ordinary thermal interface materials that are low viscosity. They will also fail in short order, and deliver poor results in the interim. That's due to the sloppy garbage hardware that the TIM is being applied to and not the TIM. Sadly, it's very common for laptops to be sloppily-made pieces of garbage.
    Yes, major temperature drop comes from deliding... if you use liquid metal between the die and IHS. If you do not, the improvement ranges from minimal to none. That is because the non-conductive TIM originally placed there is garbage and the aftermarket alternatives often aren't a whole heck of a lot better. What one considers minor improvement is subjective. A 5°C improvement in load temps (about half what is typical) is actually huge whether it sounds like it or not. It is a larger improvement than most will experience doing all manner of other home remedies in search of acceptable thermals. It can mean the difference between thermal throttling or not thermal throttling. And, 10°C (which is fairly common) is far more of an improvement than just about anything else one is likely to see from such a simple and inexpensive change.

    It's OK if you don't like the idea of using liquid metal. You're definitely not alone. Neither are the advocates of liquid metal... we are legion. It's OK to have an opinion either way, and it's OK to be scared of things that are unknown or avoid things that one has no experience with if you're not the adventurous type.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  8. etern4l

    etern4l Notebook Deity

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    "This is totally false. It outlasts ordinary thermal pastes by an extremely wide margin"

    LOL? I've got one desktop pasted with Arctic Silver several years ago and still running fine OCed so you got carried away there, but it's good to know that those reported LM reliability issues with copper heatsinks are not as bad as many claim. Obviously you are particularly passionate about LM which puts the balance of your opinions slightly in question. Your thinly veiled and unkind suggestion that people who don't share your LM passion in scenarios where there simply isn't all that much to be gained from it (locked BGA CPU, running fine as is, likely suboptimal heatsink) are "scared" or "not adventurous" is fairly infantile, I'm sorry.

    BTW Please ask @Flying Endeavor how his professional LM application resulting in 50C idle temps is doing, maybe you can help out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  9. Rei Fukai

    Rei Fukai Notebook Deity

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    you do now that @Mr. Fox and colleagues have laid a pretty substantial basis for all the most effective mods that can be applied to DTR's and now in respect BGA c*ncerbooks right ? have you googled his name just to see if he has any credibility ? you got one desktop while i can assure you @Mr. Fox has at least one desktop (for himself) one for the benching/tuning and maybe a dozen old DTR's laying around all LM'ed up. my alienware 17 R5 is thrown around when traveling (i always ship it to my destination in advance) so the fact the my alienware mx 17r2/alienware 17/alienware17 r4/alienware 17 R5 all survived LM without foam dams just the right amount you need and scotch 33+ tape proves his point.

    Also true LM like conductonaught will not dry out, due to it being more metal than addative. The LM pastes that dry out have more addative than Metal within the compound making it brittle and crack when exposed to longer duration of oxygen. Metal can't dry out. he did not say that Artic Silver is bad or dries out. You won't need repasting if A - the paste is good quality and B your heatsink is flat and level on your CPU. Just like he stated Quote: "The exception is when the fit is poor."

    LM is the way to go, and if it was so bad as you descibed Asus wouldn't use it out the factory: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-...omises-13-C-cooler-temperatures.422700.0.html

    It's been proven time and time, LM is the way to go especially in laptops where you have thin copper pipes and not much room where heat can flow (like a desktop with a good airflow for the mobo)
     
  10. etern4l

    etern4l Notebook Deity

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    Calm down. You seem to have exceeded Mr Fox's level of enthusiasm by claiming that LM is the way to go in laptops period, whereas his statement was conditional on good heatsink fit which makes far more sense.

    Manufacturers using LM is another matter altogether, as they would be taking care of the reliability of the solution and assuming the risk. If it works out in practice, which we'll find out in a few years - great! In the meantime Dell could stop using toothpaste as their TIM.
     
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