New Clevos with Max-Q?

Discussion in 'Sager and Clevo' started by pdrogfer, May 30, 2017.

  1. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox Undefiled BGA-Hating Elitist

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    Yeah, dammit... don't forget about NVIDIA's need to make money, right? It's OK (with them) if customers get screwed in the process... just... collateral damage. Sell a castrated 1080 that runs like an overclocked 1060 and charge as much for it as a regular 1080, give or take a few bucks. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's customer love, Green Goblin style. And, never mind any of the adverse aspects of this. It's all for the great cause of advancing turdbooks that are more emasculated than the last batch. Optics are the only thing that matter here. And, don't forget... Max-Q is also the answer for global warming, third-world genocide, Islamic terrorism, acne, warts, and the suffering of innocent animals around the globe. Now, let's all lock arms and sway to a round of Kumbaya.
     
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  2. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Helping people avoid being taken advantage of is often met with that kind of defense from the deceivers.

    "How can you be so sure they are going to be fooled?, you are belittling them (the consumer) by saying these things (unveiled truths).

    You should let them decide for themselves, if they want to be fooled (buy it), let them be fooled (buy it)."

    Which of course really means, "Hey!, we got a good thing going on here, why are you messing it up for us??"

    I'm not stopping people from throwing their money away, I'm helping educate them in the full light of day that what is being sold isn't as it appears.

    A 1080 Max-Q is not a full performance GTX 1080 - it's not going to give them GTX 1080 performance as they expect from a desktop or a full GTX 1080 in a laptop. Using the name 1080 is a deception.

    The name GTX 1080 call's to mind top performance and power, normally only available in large, heavy, thick, "desktop replacement" laptops.

    To sell a "GTX 1080" and then mumble some other made up word (Max-Q) to absolve yourself from culpability in the deception of the consumer, doesn't absolve you in any way, it's merely another mechanism of the deception.

    If you were really trying to sell "another choice" or "another option" in the form of a highest performance slim profile laptop, you wouldn't use the name GTX 1080, as that would be misleading, you would use the description "GTX 1070 level performance", the highest available in a thin laptop.

    People still have the choice, they can throw away $1000 more on a GTX 1080 Max-Q laptop performing at the level of a GTX 1070, or purchase a full performance GTX 1070 laptop and save $1000.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  3. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    When you call out the name GTX 1080 "first time in a thin laptop" as a selling point, you are selling performance.

    Unbelievable performance in an unbelievable package. A text book example of "if it sounds too good to be true... it's too good to be true".

    A classic marketing method, presentation of a fallacy to deceive the listener into paying for more than they are getting.

    It's not delivering the performance of a GTX 1080, so we are calling it out as being deceptive advertising.

    That's it for a start, but there's more.

    The deceptive mis-direction continues with "Quiet Operation, limited to 40db".

    You can't have maximum performance, that of a GTX 1070 (using a GTX 1080) at 40db noise output.

    You can have *either* Quiet operation at 40db *or* full GTX 1070 performance (using a GTX1080), those are mutually exclusive functional modes.

    It's the pattern of sustained deception that is the most annoying, and actually helps point out the danger of believing anything said in the marketing of these Max-Q laptops.

    MSI knows this, they haven't even used the term "Max-Q" in their product pages.

    Nvidia is driving this, vendors are stuck defending it, per usual :)
     
  4. Stooj

    Stooj Notebook Evangelist

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    Apparently (according to KitGuruTech's recent video on the pre-production model), the 1080MaxQ will be exclusive to the Zephyrus for about 6 months. Other manufacturers will follow afterwards:


    Unfortunately, most of the useful info is still under NDA for 2 weeks according to them which is also nice to know. So...we'll be back in 2 weeks I guess ;)
     
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  5. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox Undefiled BGA-Hating Elitist

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    The thing about vendors defending it is the part I don't understand. They don't need to be cheerleaders for the Green Goblin, and when they're going through the motions just to make money it's just as bad as NVIDIA selling junk to keep the cash flowing.

    If some of the big names would have big cajones and tell NVIDA "Hey, where not selling that crippled panty-waist [insert expletive for feces] to our customers" there would be no market for garbage to speak of. Nobody would be deceived because the effort would be DOA... an abject failure. It would dry up and blow away, like dust in the wind. Average consumers typically tip the Kool-Aid glass and go with whatever their pet brand tells them they should go with. Offering to sell it is a carte blanche endorsement. If they were telling customers "we're not putting our name on this filth, if you want garbage like that then go buy it elsewhere" most of them would not go buy it elsewhere. They would decide that if MSI or Alienware, or ASUS... whatever brand they venerate... says it's junk, then they will have no part of it. That's exactly what should have happened with BGA filth, but it didn't. The big name ODMs and OEMs where Intel butt-kissing yes men that went with the flow and spinning lies from every angle to mask the stench. And, here we are now. The cancer has metastasized and the fatality of high performance mobile computing is imminent. But, shame on the harbingers for raining on the parade, LOL.
     
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  6. xor01

    xor01 Notebook Deity

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    I agree with you, everyone have their own needs.
    I just hope the performance differences justifies the price differences.
    In my country, MSI GS63VR-7RF (GTX 1060) and MSI GS63VR-7RG (GTX 1070, no MaxQ label but I assume it's MaxQ) have $825 price gap.
    So, MSRP $2399 vs $3225.
     
  7. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    That's a good observation, it's going to be tough to tell the Max-Q 1070 / 1060 from the full performance models if MSI doesn't tell us.

    The unlabeled "Max-Q" model will likely be the thinner of the two, and touted as such by the ad copy - as the thinnest 1070 / 1060 ever!!

    Worst comes to worst, pay careful attention to the model number details and match them exactly to performance reviews.

    At some point these Max-Q laptops are gonna stack up in the warehouse and they will need to be unloaded a lower prices, which will make them look like bargain 1060 / 1070 laptop's, except they will run slower.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
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  8. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox Undefiled BGA-Hating Elitist

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    Don't count on that last part happening. It didn't happen when it should have before. There is no shortage on the popularity of stupid. Just because a cow patty is covered with hundreds of flies doesn't mean it's something good to eat. The flies don't know any better. They are just hungry and they have acquired a taste for manure. In fact, don't have your surprised look on your face if this trash jumps off the shelves due to deceptive marketing. We see it everywhere we look. If things were as they should be and enough people were smart enough to know better we would not have even a third of the veritable smorgasbord of castrated gamer-boy rubbish that is available today. It would be reviled and shunned as unacceptable wuss fodder.

    BTW - fixed that typo for you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  9. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    We can only hope that the reviewers will test the limits of the Max-Q laptops in the ways the owners will expect them to perform.

    Running with the 40db limit, and measuring performance.

    Then running with all the limits removed and measuring performance - with temperature and noise levels noted for that full powered maximum performance.

    It's likely that the 1080 Max-Q laptop at full performance will be louder than the GTX 1070 full sized laptops, and run hotter.

    It remains to be seen how many people will be taken in by Max-Q. I hope most people will learn about and fully realize the limitations on performance before they purchase, so they won't be disappointed when finding out for themselves after purchase.

    The resulting sales, or lack of sales should bring down the price of the Max-Q laptops to match their performance against full performance laptops.

    The $1000 difference in price between a $2700 Max-Q 1080 vs. a full performance GTX 1070 @ $1700 should erode quickly.

    The $1000 is a convenient round number, that will undoubtedly change as the Max-Q laptops need to be sold off, reducing cost to the point where they may sell at a fair price in the end, or even a bargain.

    A 1080 Max-Q should go for the price of a 1070, a 1070 Max-Q should go for the price of a 1060, and a 1060 Max-Q should go for the price of a 1050 / 1050ti / 1060 depending on if the TDP of the 1060 Max-Q matches TDP of a standard 1060 - which has been rumored.

    After reviews come out we will have a better idea of just how the Max-Q models perform as compared to their numeric namesake's, there will likely be a lot of variance in performance depending on the implementation.

    If Nvidia rolls out the Max-Q technology to all Pascal laptops, then the Pascal laptops with excellent cooling and already performing at the level of their numbered name, might actually benefit from the tunings available. That will be interesting to see as well :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  10. ThePerfectStorm

    ThePerfectStorm Notebook Deity

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    Correction - If nVidia roll out Max-Q to all laptops, then everyone gets screwed and has to buy painfully expensive stuff for cards that underperform for the name they are given, even those who can see through it like you, me, @Mr. Fox and a few others.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
     
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