My problem with the cult of Apple - Louis Rossmann

Discussion in 'Apple and Mac OS X' started by hmscott, Jul 19, 2018.

  1. Aroc

    Aroc Notebook Consultant

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    For:
    • Apple Macbook Pro 15 and 17s (2006, 2007) with NVIDA GPUs that would fail, multiple times (CAD work or engineering simulations, so they were run HARD).
    • Apple Macbook Pro 17 (2010) failures.
    • Apple MacBook Pro 15 (2011+) failures.

    Rossmann is absolutely right that the fanboys or forum posters will tell you that you're using a laptop wrong and you can't run them hard like that, despite that's Apple advertised you could use them for that purpose.
     
  2. saturnotaku

    saturnotaku Notebook Prophet

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    The problems with the NVIDIA GPU were not unique to Apple. Pretty much any brand of notebook that used the 8600GT were subject to high rates of failure.
     
  3. Raidriar

    Raidriar ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    Can confirm, it was not only the 8600M GT, but also the quadro equivalents such as FX 570M in the T61 series thinkpads that were very susceptible to dying. It's not fair to hit Apple over an nVidia manufacturing problem.
     
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  4. Aroc

    Aroc Notebook Consultant

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    True. I had (or still have) a Thinkpad T61p with the NVIDIA Quadro version of this card and this GPU+mobo combo and its know failure rate. It's what drove me to consider a dGPU that isn't soldered trash that can be repaired (e.g., MXM) or just stick with iGPU.
     
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  5. Aroc

    Aroc Notebook Consultant

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    No, it isn't. And to be fair, AppleCare and the genius bar were pretty good at replacing them, multiple times, if needed.
     
  6. Raidriar

    Raidriar ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    My quadro equipped T61p is still kicking :D

    I did undervolt the vBIOS though, it was set by nvidia WAY too high, convinced that's what ended up contributing significantly to destroying many of these chips. Stock vBIOS voltage was an obscene 1.15V, I pulled it down to 0.90V without modifying any of the clock speeds. Huge reduction in power consumption and heat production.
     
  7. Aroc

    Aroc Notebook Consultant

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    @Raidriar ,
    My T61p is still kicking too. No failures yet. I'll have to look into that undervolt vBIOS trick. Do you do that with Intel Extreme Tuning Utility (Intel XTU) or some corresponding NVIDIA tool?
     
  8. Raidriar

    Raidriar ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    No, there is a special BIOS to flash, made by chinese enthusiast Highsun. Check here (use google translate)
    https://thinkpad-forum.de/threads/1...Quad-in-Thinkpad-T61-benutzen-GPU-undervolten

    I would start with 专门网论坛_T61-BIOS(0.95)_ASPM.rar,and if your chip can tolerate that, you can try 专门网论坛_T61-BIOS(0.9)_ASPM.rar

    I have the 0.9 ASPM version with an intel X9000 extreme chip + throttlestop to undervolt the CPU. It is still a good setup, my bedside computer for web browsing :)
     
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  9. LarrySB

    LarrySB Notebook Enthusiast

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    Having been an engineer in the industry (not just at Apple) I can tell you, this was an engineering *success*. It is a marketing and product design failure.

    Why is it engineering success? Because it works at all, given the constraints the engineering team was given. Having been there, I can tell you that Ives and the Industrial Design crew rule the roost. Extremely difficult tasks are handed to the engineering teams by industrial design, which means products have to be thinner, lighter, curvier, with different materials than everyone else uses.

    I can tell you from experience how things like i9 MBP come about.

    People want these things and are willing to pay for them. Marketing demands an i9 level MBP to satisfy those customers and why the heck not when they're willing to pony up several kilobucks for them?

    Engineering gets stuck in the middle. I guarantee you, every engineer in the EE team knew exactly how it would work out. I guarantee you that the engineering and PD team came back to ID and Marketing and said, "if we stuff this CPU into the existing product platform, it is not going to perform the way people want it to." Then they got told, "go make it work and you cannot change the ID of the product, period." So they made it work, stably, and reliably, because that's what engineers do. And it does. They aren't failing to do that, are they? So Apple gets a firmware update out, which who knows what it does, but they'll warranty the machine in any case. They probably got a concession of +2c less thermal headroom and a slight under-voltage change from some unnamed silicon vendor.

    Honestly, why the hell Intel is producing this CPU sku is also pretty questionable. It basically will not work in any modern era business-sized (ie, thinnish <0.6" and lightish < 5-lbs) laptop. Heck, the Alienware 15 R4 (at 7.7lbs) and the Eurocom Q8 don't have any bragging rights either, falling well behind many i7-8750h cpu's multi-threaded performance. With a rated 45W TDP, it's gonna throttle unless it has a fat and heavy cooler sitting on top of it blowing lots of air.

    The only thing this CPU works well in is a 10lb, 2-inch thick desktop replacement, and even some of those don't cut the mustard either, being equalled or bested by lower spec versions with lower price tags.

    But can you imagine the hue and cry over Apple being behind everyone else if they had not made this i9 model?

    It's not an engineering failure in this case. They made it work and not burn up, given the specs they had to work in.
     
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