MSI GT75 is now available for purchase in most reseller sites

Discussion in 'MSI' started by Midas Touch, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. Kevin

    Kevin Egregious

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    You're generalizing, which is my gripe. What specific laptop are you saying runs super loud at 120fps? The GT73 doesn't, therefore I doubt the GT75 will.

    High refresh rate + G-Sync is the best of both worlds.

    I do agree that really good IPS win over TN, but the problem is that no one is making really good IPS displays, for laptops. We don't even have low response time 60Hz IPS yet.
     
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  2. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    I'm generalizing to 120 FPS on a laptop GTX 1080 @ 1080p, and loud is subjective of course, but it's 2x the load of 60 FPS, which depending on the game is 100% CPU load or slightly less and higher frame rates tax the CPU as well putting load on it.

    It's a factor that needs to be realized, there is a trade-off for the wonders of 120 FPS, it takes more power and therefore cooling.

    There may be people out there that don't realize this, not that you are one of them, but I have had people comment on the noise.

    Similarly when G-sync came out new owners marveled at the low temps and quiet operation, not realizing it was because games that were previously running at 100% GPU with unlimited FPS were now running at 60 FPS and the load on the CPU and GPU were much lower - giving the low temps and lower fan noise.

    There are people that complain about fan noise because they don't know they can control the CPU / GPU load and limit frame rate.

    If you know these things you can tune accordingly for your desired usage. Set games to limit at the FPS with the load / power / cooling / noise level you can enjoy, 60 FPS to 120 FPS - maybe even a bit more if you can overclock the display panel higher than 120hz, or much less if you like it cool and quiet.

    I'm not saying the 120 FPS display is bad, but for most people it's not needed and may encourage them to run their laptops with a much heavier load and noise levels.

    If you play games where high framerate is needed, and a 120 FPS display makes a noticeable improvement then that's different :)
     
  3. Falkentyne

    Falkentyne Notebook Deity

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    While I normally agree with @hmscott on a majority of his posts, I vehemently disagree with him on not needing 120hz displays. People needed and wanted 120hz displays even when desktop videocards were SLOWER than our current laptop Pascal cards, and yet they did just fine with them. Not everyone plays only triple A games on Ultra details, and this is something you need to keep in mind. In addition, dealing with 60hz displays without Gsync just leads to 16.7ms of extra input lag if you enable vsync to remove screen tearing (as if laptops didn't have enough cancer firmware to limit us to begin with), and besides the fact that no desktop videocard or monitor has enough bandwidth to push 4k @ 120hz yet (like that prototype Dell OLED monitor supported with multiple inputs, which was then stripped for the production "test" retail ( http://www.overclock.net/t/1627849/oled-4k-30-60-hz-dell-up3017q/670 ) units that were downscaled to 4k@60hz OLED, and then Dell discontinued production), pushing 120 fps at 120hz @ 1080p is far easier than 60 fps @ 60hz @ 4k.

    Please keep in mind that going from 1920x1080 (1080p) to 2560x1440 (QHD) is a 77% increase in pixel fill rate required to keep the same FPS, if you are fillrate limited (77% more pixels), but 1080p to 4k is actually the equivalent of what was known as 4x supersampling. That requires 4x the amount of pixel processing power. That's why 4k on a laptop is complete silly unless you are actually doing WORK on the laptop, or content creation, not games. It's hard enough on a desktop at the moment (people who had the 4k Dell OLED would have to run at lower than 4k to get decent framerates on single video cards).

    I don't know if laptops support Nvidia DSR (all desktop cards do), but if they do, or if you can use another third party program to create DSR resolutions, you can create a 3840x2160 resolution with DSR, on a 1080p panel, and then watch the framerates plummet. If not, you can force 4x supersampling AA, but i don't know how to do this in current games that ignore NVCP AA settings.

    So I think 1080p @ 120 fps is quite nice and a required sweet spot for gamers right now. Now 1440p on the other hand, then I can see @hmscott 's point, especially with castrated Max Q chips and pascal boards limited by TDP restrictions that desktop cards have more freedom to work around. And only the 1070 pascal cards can increase TDP safely to desktop levels (as the MXM slot is designed to support 150W), but modding a 1080 card for more than 200W (e.g. desktop 215W-258W) even with the auxiliary power connector on models that use more than 150W), can be dangerous.

    Also on gsync boards, if you can't get 120 fps @ 120hz, you can still enable gsync even if you're only getting 85-90 fps, and it will look better than a 60hz panel with gsync, because since the PANEL is refreshing at a higher refresh rate, pixel clarity from pixel persistence will increase at higher fps, so more is always better.

    Yes heat is a concern, but there's always repasting...
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  4. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Again, I'm not saying they are bad, I am saying they have a power and thermal price, 60 FPS G-sync vs 120 FPS G-sync, it's noticeable :)

    1440p 120 FPS G-sync is even more noticeable.

    You don't need to use Vsync, you can use a frame limiter like RTSS.

    IDK, I don't see the need in many games for the faster frame rate. I'm not saying it's not noticeable, I'm saying it's not required for enjoyable game play in many games (most?).

    But, to each their own, I'm not warning off people like I do for 4k displays - still a problem for scaling and the same power and thermal considerations, not to mention the much higher power requirement in battery mode.

    If you like it, that's awesome, I don't feel the need for it over the need for an enjoyable display to look at for hours at a time. It's a trade off.

    That's why I would want an IPS internal display with options for high framerate gaming on external monitors.

    It's a preference to learn for yourself by using a variety of displays at different frame rates over time.

    Try playing around and limiting frames to 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120 FPS, or a larger step to save time. Monitor the sound, temperatures, and your enjoyment level. Some games that require high FPS will stand out, others there won't be a helpful difference.

    Rather than run full out at 120 FPS, dial it back to the frame rate you need in each game. It's another level of tuning.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  5. Mobius 1

    Mobius 1 what is quality control?

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    ASUS have good heatsink tolerance for the G701VI(kbl)

    ACER is interesting. Although I have doubt about the cooling system, I want to see the performance of the aeroblade fan. Plus it has a third system fan which pushes air through the laptop to cool the VRM and other power delivery module.



    I can see it to be a problem with laptops that have a high TDP GPU such as the GT8* or the GT** series from MSi.
    Ex: A 150w+ MSi 1070 will have a higher average power draw on 120hz game compared to 60hz.

    But with low TDP GPU [1070 115-130w] like Alienware, HP, ASUS(?), ACER(?) etc etc... The power limit increase would be negligible since those laptops already hit the TDP limit frequently enough on 60hz games...
     
  6. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    I understand your thinking on this, but what you are missing is that with the low TDP GPU's they won't be able to perform at as high an FPS given their limits, so they won't even get as close to 120 FPS as the high TDP GPU's.

    It all comes down to a certain power / cooling requirement that doubles from 60 FPS to 120 FPS, you can't get around it. Will some laptops cool better? Yes, of course, but they could cool even better with 1/2 the FPS load.

    I am pointing this out as a simple and often missed cause of louder operation and higher thermals.

    It's the same as if these were 60 FPS display laptops and were running without G-sync or V-sync, and didn't have a framerate limiter enabled, they would be tossing away frames and generating heat, either getting too hot temperature's or too loud cooling.

    In this case we would recommend either enabling v-sync or installing RTSS to limit frame rate to refresh rate to reduce the load on the CPU / GPU to reduce temps and quiet the fans.

    Now, when jumping to 120 FPS in a laptop that was running 60 FPS, you are going to run hotter than when the frame limit was 60 FPS.

    Those same laptops that we recommended reducing FPS to reduce thermal output are now using 60 extra FPS above 60hz to feed a 120hz display, and are generating that same extra thermal energy we were recommending to avoid at 60hz/60FPS with RTSS / Frame limiter.

    It's as simple as that. Not saying 120 FPS screens are bad, except for the TN thing, just saying they are running with a much higher load than when they were running 60 FPS. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017 at 10:29 AM
  7. icic2017

    icic2017 Newbie

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    hhhh.:rolleyes:. to be honest, I love products msi.. especially laptops. but their prices are very expensive..:(
     
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  8. Mobius 1

    Mobius 1 what is quality control?

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    Like ASUS, MSi laptops tend to work out of the box with stock settings with hardly any need for user intervention.

    *cough*alienware*cough*
     
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  9. Midas Touch

    Midas Touch Notebook Deity

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    And you get what you paid for and unlike other brands such as Razer or Alienware you pay more for less.

    100Hz or higher refresh rate is a godsend, can't go back to 60Hz after experiencing a 100Hz monitor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 9:30 AM
  10. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    I'm not sure you meant to say it like I read it.

    Are you saying that unlike the overpriced Razer and Alienware you pay less for more with Asus and MSI? Because that's how it's been for a long time.

    The GT75 first shipping units are overladen with RAM and storage, and the follow on units will be configured more typically - and much cheaper.

    I wouldn't judge MSI for there attempt at getting sales with higher margin's from eager early adopters.

    MSI doesn't have the ala cart build's like Dell / Alienware, but if you configure them the same the Alienware has been more expensive every time I've checked in the past - I haven't compared the GT75 with the AW 17 R4, give it a shot and let us know :)
    IDK if that's strictly true, but I get that you and I see a difference between 100hz and 60hz - as well as 70hz vs 60hz, etc.

    I've had 100hz+ for a number of years, and still manage to successfully use 60hz as well.

    Alhough I can "see a difference" 60hz doesn't cause me any negative effects on usage, so I sure can't say I *can't* go back.

    A really good IPS screen wins over a really good TN screen, even a 120hz one for me. It's more about the fidelity of color and quality of image than response time, at least for me. :)
     
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