LG Gram 2021 announced: 14, 16 and 17

Discussion in 'LG' started by RS4, Dec 16, 2020.

  1. extremecarver

    extremecarver Notebook Consultant

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    Is gaming so depending on single core performance? That's the only place where the i7 is faster in reality.
    I'm a bit unsure about the cache. In an ideal world c10 instead of c8 would be used much more, in reality c10 is seldom used. LG gram is one of the very few notebooks actually using it, however there seem to be lots of ways to stop it from being used. Without c10 regularly used, that cache increases temperature more than the speed you can get from it. Same for those GPU execution units (which anyhow aren't used because of thermal constraint).

    Best processor therefore would be an 1145g7 but that one is rarely sold as it closes the single core speed gap a bit. Not sold in of gram. The best would be an i5 with 4700mhz single core speed. 4200 Vs 4700 that's the real difference i5 Vs i7. Dual core to quadcore performance actually the i5 will win due to thermal constraint.

    Yes if the 14 wouldn't exist, the 16 and 17 inch would either be slimmer or have more performance due to better thermals. I don't understand why they don't have an 99 wh battery in the 16 and 17 too. Space is there...

    I don't have a scale at home, but it seems anyhow that the actual weight is lower with the 16 inch weighting 1140g and the 17 inch 1290g. Good enough for a better heat pipe and 99wh battery (cannot go bigger as that's the max allowed on planes).

    Oh and add one more plastic bumper at the bottom below top of trackpad. That would eliminate any flex while typing. Will actually look for something there myself.


    Oh and switching from edge to Canary edge with Performance mode to on will get you an additional hour or two of battery life.

    With 80% screen brightness I can then get down to pretty much 6watt per hour - that is about 13 hours of work time. Now knowing that only about 2 to 2.5 watt is the display panel, the rest of the laptop barely consuming power, that is still an awful waste of CPU resources their on intel/microsoft parts vs apple with ARM. That is if I don"t have to disable panel self refresh because it blacks my screen. It is however without C10 state. If it's one of the few days where C10 is working, it could go down to 5.3 watt instead.
    So if the software hardware problems are fixed - 15 hours are somewhat realistic for productivity work on the 16" gram. I doubt Microsoft and intel will ever get there. With chrome it's 9 hours instead of 11 with edge and 13 with edge with performance mode.. Mind also the heat at the bottom of course is much better at 13 or 15 hours vs 9 hours... 15 hours CPU heat vs 9 hours lifetime CPU heat - is like only half the temperature delta. Big change if having the notebook on your lap..

    If the lg gram had an ARM processor I guess it would be possible to get down to 3.5 watts per hour at 80% screen brightness. I would still like the big battery to stay. As this could mean for weekend trip or hiking week leaving the charger at home..
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  2. hfm

    hfm Notebook Prophet

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    The best processor for eGPU gaming isn't out yet, it will be a 6 or 8 core H45 with embedded TB4 controller. And games are no longer single core friendly. Some are, but the days of a 4 core being enough for modern AAA games being released today is about over. It's starting holding back modern engines that can take advantage of more threads. Perhaps at 40W PL1 it can squeak by, but 16-20W is just not enough for things like CP2077. It's only going to get worse around the corner.
     
  3. extremecarver

    extremecarver Notebook Consultant

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    well if it's about multicore performance, I actually bet the i5 will be faster in the gram or same speed. It's only about thermals and in that part the i5 trumps the i7 (which is dragging along more cache and not needed graphic execution units at the given thermal envelope). If instead of 23-24 watt cooling you have 30watt cooling the i7 will be faster. But not at such limited cooling. Well buy i7 and then repaste plus add another heatpipe or more pads. That way likely the i7 will be a bit faster. Not sure how far you can get. Also the wattage is limited to 30w in the lg gram. So those 30w may even then be the more important bottleneck and not the cooling. Right now clearly it's the cooling.
     
  4. extremecarver

    extremecarver Notebook Consultant

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    Can anyone else confirm that C10 state is not entered after hibernate/sleep except by deactivating and reactivating panel self refresh? This is clearly a bug because without C10 you constantly have about 0.5-1w additional power draw. Also in benchmarks without C10 you will get lower results. C10 is only active after fresh boot, and after activating/deactivating panel self refresh.
    just look at the C-states in idle in Throttlestop.

    Also sometimes randomly it will just deactivate - and only solution is to get it back via intel graphic command center. The problem is - 99% of all notebooks are not using C9 and C10 states. However without them tiger lake is inefficient and idles with way more resources due to the large Cache. Actually what C10 does is that is disables the Cache additional to the Cores. Those 12MB of cache draw a lot of power. On the i5 the effect will be smaller, but I kinda guess C10 not working correctly is the main reason why the i5 is faster in multicore benchmarks vs i7 for many notebooks. If your cooling can cool more than 30w then this won't matter anymore as you max out the i5.

    Now if I only knew how to just deactivate/reactivate that setting via a script every 30 minutes or so. Under load it's more 0.5, under idle 1w difference! 1w is a huge difference. That could be about 20% less or more battery runtime. Well tomorrow my replacement LG Gram 16 with i5 should arrive - I will check first thing how that one behaves there and compare the display. I need to send back my current gram 16 on Tuesday..
     
  5. skipper63

    skipper63 Notebook Consultant

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    We have sunny weather at last and got out and used my Gram 16 on battery. Have to remove the battery saver to get full brightness but it was more than enough to look at the screen through my sunglasses, a very pleasant experience. Even at full brightness it seems I was getting one hour for every 10% of the battery for emails, Internet browsing etc. I have never till now emptied the battery and I keep it only at 80% charged, but I am totally satisfied and confident that I can get easily more than 8 hours for any productivity work and this is more than enough.
     
  6. extremecarver

    extremecarver Notebook Consultant

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    That's strange - I have absolutely no difference in brightness whether battery saver is on or not. Or based on which battery mode is activated. The only thing that happens if when activating the battery saver, brightness is reduced to 70%. However I can then just turn it back up to 100%. And yes - 10 hours if not scrolling picture heavy websites on 100% brightness could be possible - even 13-14 hours video on 100% brightness. It's the damn CPU that kills your battery, never the screen on the new LG Gram. Though 80% vs 100% is a big difference. Below 80% the return of dimming your screen more is quite low. The screen doesn't consume too much. For me outside the visibility it's not possible to work with all the reflections. I'm really thinking about buying foil to cut reflections. However I would like a semi-glossy foil - and it seems those are hard to get. I can't find any foil in the 13-18% haze range to stick on...

    My phone P30 Pro (620 nits or so) is sometimes not bright enough for me outside in the sun. I don't think any display below 500 nits does it for me on a sunny day if glossy, and no glossy display below 400 nits on a lightly cloudy day. For semi-matte reduce that by 20%. For matte by 25%. I will definitely check my two gram 16 out today in the sun if there is a big difference regarding coating and max brightness.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  7. extremecarver

    extremecarver Notebook Consultant

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    DO NOT GET THE i7 in the LG Gram!
    For less than 9% improvement in Single Score Cinebench R20 (538 vs 497 points) - you will need 30% more power!!! If you want to get good singlecore performance, get another notebook. Don't ask me why, but the lg gram is just slow on Cinebench R20 singlecore.

    For multi core the i5 beats the i7! In my 25 degree warm room Cinebench R20 the i5 got 2041 points, the i7 got 1963 points. Yes only about 2% faster. However it again used more power - this time the damage is small. The i7 needs about 1-1.5w more. I guess however that the i7 is somehow better cooled. Because it constantly can use about 1w more according to Throttlestop. Or the i7 can dissipate a bit more heat because the Cache needs a lot of power. Same as if GPU is used a lot - then the lg gram can cool more watts.

    How the F**k is the i7 using soo much more power. Must be the L3 cache that gobbles power like crazy. Actually for single thread Cinebench, the i7 is thermal throttling all the time running about 4400-4500 Mhz. At the same time the i5 running at constant 4200 uses 12w package power vs 18w package power of the i7, and only runs at 80 degrees (vs 97 for the i7). Yes in a 20 degree room, this would be 100mhz more I guess for the i7. I increased Prochoot to 97 on both but as I know from previous testing, that cannot make up the difference in room temperature. At 20 degrees the i5 would likely score about 2200 points in Cinebench R20 Multi - and be much faster than your average 1165g7 notebook. Yes with better cooling there would be more points - but few notebooks right now can cool over 28w pure CPU power or so..
    I always rechecked the power with batteryviewinfo. So during single core Cinebench r20, the i7 needs about 22 watts at the start, then falls to 21 watts. The i5 needs a constant 16 watts. That is on both with 90% screen brightness. Package power is 12w vs 18w falling to a fluctuation between 16 and 18w. I guess due to the bigger L3 cache single core speed is faster than the 4200 vs 4700mhz implies. Instead of about 12% faster it is actually 14% faster or so. However do you really want 9% faster for 30% more energy consumption? And the more cores are active the smaller the advantage actually reversing to get the i5 into the lead for multicore performance? I definitely do not want that.


    as for the display, they are so damn identical. I cannot tell any difference. Neither in color balance, nor in brightness, nor in contrast or whatever. My new i5 does not have the panel self refresh problem - therefore I disabled/enabled the panel self refresh for the i7 before each test to have a fair game knowing that when the panel self refresh runs havoc, the notebook consumes more power.

    I did just move the full installation from the i7 to the i5, so all settings, software and so on are identical. And funnily, while the i7 comes with 16GB SK Hynix RAM, and 256GB PM981a Samsung NVME, the i5 comes with 16GB Samsung RAM, and 512 GB SK Hynix 401 SSD. I would have preferred a Samsung 512GB SSD, as I will add another 980 1TB into it later and kinda guess maybe 2x Samsung is better than 1x Sk Hynix, 1x Samsung. However maybe it won't matter at all, as only one drive is system drive and both should support the latest power saving measures in idle. With lowest enabled the power use should be about 5mw according to my research. So for battery life 2 NVME vs 1 bigger NVME makes not much of a difference at all. Only thing is of course you add 10g or so.


    Power Consumption for AV1 test video - Stream3_AV1_4K_13.9mbps.webm
    full screen brightness.
    i5 - 2w package power and 5.8w overall
    i7 - 3w package power and 7w overall.

    Cinebench R15 - and once again the i5 kicks the i7 out of the game.
    i5 852cb, i7 801cb... Both running into EDP other limit. However the i5 can keep the speed while the i7 will start throttling a bit after some runs. Strangely though if I use Ballanced power profile the i5 is only getting 500 points - and the CPU running at half speed max. Something going wrong there. i5 seems to clock down much more aggressive vs i7 on same settings.
    Open GL Cinebench R15 its i5 at 82 fps vs i7 around 78 fps...

    On Cinebench R23 however the i5 is throttling much earlier, however not thermal but power. Dunno what is happening there. I cannot seem to override it with throttlestop. The throttling on top is a bit more annoying falling down to 800mhz and 15w limit kicking in. Need to play around in throttlestop a bit on the i5 I guess. Maybe however this is bios related.

    the i7 comes with bios 2060 from 12.01.2021, while the i5 has an older bios 2050 from 04.01.2021..


    In general it's dead clear however. Do not get the i7. Usually the i5 will outperform it in the gram. The i5 actually scores very good for a tiger lake laptop in the ultrabook sector while the i7 is around average. And the i5 just uses way less power for light loads and single core tasks vs the i7. So for general work I guess you can get 14 hours out of the i5, while the i7 is then around 12 hours. Except when not touching the device and idling, the i7 will just always need at least 1w more or so. So thats 15-25% more power use depending on your workload.

    Cinebench R15 single core - same problem. 208 points i7 vs 201 points i5. However 5watts more power usage. On repeat runs the i7 also only scores around 200 points, while the i5 keeps the same speed.... That additional single core performance on the i7 is not worth it at all.
    Edit: starting Cinebench R15 from idling a bit longer actually gave me 891 points on the i5. Second run 844, third run straight after 838.. After 3 runs the i5 still being faster than the i7 on first run....
    On the 4th run however than the big throttle - 614 points only as it runs straight from the Start on PL1 power limit 15W.- really need to find out how to disable that one..

    All numbers of course with performance mode in LG control center. If you are on ballanced there the i7 will love every test against the i5 - because it simply runs hotter.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  8. skipper63

    skipper63 Notebook Consultant

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    There is definitely a difference. Max the brightness at battery saver mode and then move the slider to better battery and you will notice at least a 15% increase in full brightness. For me the screen is bright enough for outdoors working. If you have direct sunlight on the back of your head, you cannot anyway do any productive work for an extended period of time. I would never use my laptop while sunbathing... As I wrote I was impressed I could look at the screen with sunglasses on.
     
  9. extremecarver

    extremecarver Notebook Consultant

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    maybe I changed something in the power plan options, or you changed something there. I cannot get any different brightness based on power plan - and also no difference if plugged in or not. Both of my lg gram 16 are identical in this regard (I did check max screen brightness before moving the system too and there was no difference).

    It's okay for some minutes, but after 30 minutes of so my eyes are super tired from all the reflections. So yes you can see stuff, but really it's tiring. Even with a little cloud cover it's simply impossible to work for longer outside around midday. On a matte display either you see or you can't see. But it doesn't strain your eyes.
     
  10. skipper63

    skipper63 Notebook Consultant

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    My i7 came with 1Tb Hynix SSD. I think it is quite slower than my 970 EVO Plus I installed as D: drive. I run again the tests and in sequential write the Samsung is much better than the Hynix.
     
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