How will Ampere scale on laptops?

Discussion in 'Gaming (Software and Graphics Cards)' started by Kunal Shrivastava, Sep 6, 2020.

  1. Clamibot

    Clamibot Notebook Evangelist

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    Regarding one of my earlier posts on Ampere's performance scaling with power, 98% of the performance at 65% of the power draw was overly optimistic. However, new information has come to light: https://wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/vs-2080-Ti-Overall.png

    The picture is from this article: https://wccftech.com/undervolting-ampere-geforce-rtx-3080-hidden-efficiency-potential/

    Yes, I know this is just one article, but it suggests that Ampere can be pretty aggresively undervolted while retaining most of the performance. Based on the picture I linked to, you can get around 97% of the original performance at around 74% of the original power draw. Granted, this test was only performed in one game (Forza Horizon 4), but again, it suggests the performance gap between laptops and desktops may not be as wide as previously thought. Needing an extra 80 watts to get an extra 4 FPS is not worth it in my opinion, and is a negligible difference when you're already getting very high framerates.

    So perhaps over 90% of the performance of the desktop cards will be achievable in laptops. This means the gap may get narrower again like we saw with Pascal. I'd say a less than 10% difference is really good, especially considering the much smaller power requirement to achieve that performance level.
     
  2. Tyranus07

    Tyranus07 Notebook Evangelist

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    I'm telling you man, 250W should be more than enough to get over 95% of performance of the 320W 3080.. by the way I have zero proofs of what I'm saying, just my guts , lol
     
  3. OneSickOmen17t

    OneSickOmen17t Notebook Consultant

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    I mean my 150w 2080 Super can barely get anything over 60-65*. I'm sure my Omen could cool at least 200w easily.
     
  4. yrekabakery

    yrekabakery Notebook Virtuoso

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    I'm not sure I agree with this conclusion. You're postulating that an aggressively undervolted desktop Ampere GPU can get within 10% of its stock performance while shaving off about a quarter of its power as a representation of the performance we might see on mobile Ampere without considering that:
    1. This still leaves an extra 40W before it reaches the ~200W GPU ceiling for the heftiest desktop replacement notebooks. And what about the more normal-sized models with GPUs around 150W?
    2. Such an aggressive undervolt that can perform with 100% stability cannot be standardized as it requires both a silicon lottery winner and manual end-user tuning.
    3. As a corollary to the above, desktop GPUs running at much lower temperatures can undervolt better. Higher temperatures both increases the voltage needed for stability as well as the power consumption.
    4. Mobile Pascal didn't just close the gap, it effectively eliminated it at stock without any end-user tuning, at least in the case of the GTX 1080N.
     
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  5. Clamibot

    Clamibot Notebook Evangelist

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    Those are some perfectly valid points.

    For the Max-P GPUs with higher power budgets, I'd expect those to be pretty close to desktop level performance, but don't quote me on that. I will happily eat my words if I'm wrong. It does seem that the desktop cards are using a lot more power than necessary though, which is what led me to the conclusion that the performance gap between desktop and laptop cards could get narrower vs Turing.

    Remember that you can save around 80 watts of power with barely any drop in performance. I do expect the performance loss to become greater as the power drops further, but I think it's still possible to get awesome performance on mobile Ampere. We'll just have to wait for the mobile Ampere GPUs to get concrete statistics on their behavior in laptops.
     
  6. seanwee

    seanwee Notebook Deity

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  7. seanwee

    seanwee Notebook Deity

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    cover2(1).jpg

    Beefier and more effective cooling systems will enable laptop manufacturers to cram ever more powerful parts into laptops.

    There's a LOT of room for laptop cooling to improve still.
     
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  8. Raidriar

    Raidriar ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

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    I said this before when Ampere was announced: you should be happy if you get desktop 2080Ti performance with ampere equipped laptops. The power draw is insane and even with the 65% power draw = 98% performance thing, you’d be ~200W which is only attainable by the beefiest of machines, which are generally not the most commonly sold computers.
     
  9. hfm

    hfm Notebook Prophet

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    If Ampere is truly more power efficient they should just be able to shoot for the same power targets Turing was using and we will just see a commensurate performance gain at the same power level.
     
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  10. Kunal Shrivastava

    Kunal Shrivastava Notebook Enthusiast

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    Wishful thinking I guess. There are reports of RTX 3080 GPUs crashing and even outright failing because the capacitors can't handle current from the VRMs. Nvidia say they have fixed that with a driver update. Translation: They capped the boost frequency for the GPU,and cut the time for sustained boost.
    Allegedly there's a 10% drop in performance,so there goes the performance gap we saw claimed with pascal desktop and laptop.
    The ampere card still runs at 300+ Watts after the driver update.
    Secondly, the samsung 8nm node has poor yields out of the box: 75-80%.
    Shockingly they made a statement recently that your chances of getting a 'good' or 'great' GPU are better than getting an 'okay' GPU. Reading between the lines of PR marketing, nvidia is not confident with the node.
    The fact that even RTX 3090 which is a Titan level card is stuck with 8nm should say heaps about nvidia trying to cut corners here. There are confirmed reports that nvidia were in talks with TSMC to try and shove in 7nm somehow on their higher end GPUs but instead had to go the Samsung route because TSMC was charging per die and Samsung per wafer, if they had a working chip at the end.
    These cards are also priced pretty aggressively so distributors are trying to increase margins by opting for second grade non-ceramic capacitors- another cheap move by nvidia because AMD clearly has a much superior node with TSMC 7nm+.
    Nvidia made in house capacitors until Turing but why did they abandon it with Ampere? Because they want to retain maximum profit margins per board.
    Everything they pulled, including buying ARM is a knee jerk reaction to AMD, who genuinely stand a chance to win this gen if they price the 6800/6900xt sensibly.(look at the consoles!)
    Lisa Su single handedly dethroned Intel with Ryzen, and now they are gunning for Nvidia. Ampere and ARM are Nvidia desperately trying to cling to the performance crown-Although if Nvidia plays their cards right they might have a winner with ARM and their AI tech.
    As for the GPUs, it's time to see what Big Navi can do. It's got a better chance even on laptops.
     
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