GT72/GT72S and GT80/GT80S Owners GPU Upgrade Discussion

Discussion in 'MSI' started by hmscott, Aug 22, 2016.

  1. ryzeki

    ryzeki Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    Ok lets try to get on the issues first:

    1) We won't be splitting the thread for the time being, because we feel there is not enough users for the split itself to be of actual use. What I mean is the following: While I do believe that specific threads for specific owners are a great idea in general (example, GT73 owners thread) we can't do so here because the user base is very fragmented and composed of many regions. Each individual region has a very small representation, which would make the whole splitting a bad idea, as everything would be completely segmented. We would rather keep the on going thread as a hub for users to discuss even if their region has entirely different rules/program. Users are better off here sharing their ideas/opinions and experiences here.

    2) Most of the interaction here with MSI will be with MSI USA and should be considered as such. Reps here can easily provide your information to the appropiate branch if you need/want to, regarding the upgrade program, but MSI USA is not handling themselves the other region's program/agenda for this.

    3) The USA team handling the MSI Trade program, is completely different than the US MSI Representatives here, so in that regard, keep that in mind if you have specific questions of the program (if you PM or need specific info from topics here).

    Now, lets get some points that need to be kept in mind:

    The MSI Upgrade kits are not an alternative, won't happen, couldn't happen and MSI has stated that these are not an option, so they are instead offering the program itself to users. This has implications that cannot be ignored nor pretend they don't apply, and impact the value of your laptop.

    The following points are regardless of the Trade up program.

    1) Regardless of the upgrade kit lack of existence, our current laptop value tremendously decreased by the existance of a superior pascal model, not only by MSI, but by virtually every other vendor. People complaining about the value of your machine, have to remember that, for example, a top of the line GT72S with a dekstop 980 (regardless of its initial value, probably 2.5k?) is now fighting vs 1100-1300dlrs machines on the market. This is regardless of MSI. And this applies to every single pre-pascal model, vs current market. (obviously older models like my GT80 are in an even worse position, 2 gens older CPU/chipset among other things). My GT80 with original 3400dlrs price, is matched by a 1700dlrs machine in performance.

    2) Even if upgrade kits were available, the overall value of your laptop is less than a new laptop sporting a new GPU. Following the previous example, upgrading your exact same top of the line GT72S with 980 desktop, to a new 1070, would be valued LESS at the market compared to an average 1070 new laptop by virtue of being used. Best case scenario, your upgraded laptop would have to battle now in value versus new machines sporting the same GPU starting between 1600 onwards.

    3) MSI can sell their own manufactured machines at any cost they want when offered directly. They are not bound to a price other than what their own manufactured value is to them. It doesn't even matter what hardware they sport (Look at apple and razer). They choose the price of their models. In reality though, it would be bad practice to sell under MSRP because they would affect their own partners and distribution network (For example, nvidia's own cards, and how their higher price affected MSRP of all other cards).

    4) While MSI said that the cost of the upgrade would be the same as if you only upgraded the GPU, is probably something they should do away in their email because it only applies to specific models, and that's why it gathers such a reaction. Instead, MSI should say that they are taking into account a value they considered for their machine (if possible, how much but it is up to them to determine) and the cost to the direct/desired model.

    People want after market MSRP value of their laptops being considered, while under MSRP value for new machines for direct distribution. Obviously we all want the best deal possible, but this does not mean that it will happen. Sure you can see a best buy selling an old Titan for say, 2.5k. That doesn't mean that's the actual value of the laptop right now, and if people buy it at that price they either agreed to the value, or did not look up at other alternatives.

    The MSI Trade in program is the current offered alternative. It is completely understandable and valid if you do not want to participate on the program because it is not what you wanted/needed. But right now it is the only alternative offered by MSI. You should, and are encouraged, to evaluate other means you find regarding this, including privately selling your machine to your own value, and get a new machine. Or simply keep your machine if it's working great for you etc.

    As for a global program: Each region and market has different rules and laws that apply. The program offered won't be the same on each region. It would be awesome if globally everything would be standard but this is not how the market works. Sadly, some markets have to sell at even higher prices, so they are at a disadvantage from the get go.

    Ignoring everything: As an user, you are encouraged to pursue what is best for you. If you consider the program works for you, go ahead. If you consider it doesn't, then don't take advantage of it. The idea is to find the best possible solution to you. And here in the forums, we will try to help in any way we can.
     
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  2. KommandantKavu

    KommandantKavu Notebook Enthusiast

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    You? None. I'm saying if the company did this, and to claim it's possible this is what they were doing, it's a serious thing. Basically, it's saying 'theoretically they could be committing criminal activity', sure, but why bother stating that without evidence for it? I just dislike this sort of 'fear mongering' so I'm very skeptical of even putting forth the ideas in an area where people are already a bit on edge.. That's all.

    It probably takes quite a bit of time, and it probably takes them quite a few iterations of R&D with them attempting to make it work before they call it quits and decide to go down alternative paths.. However, ALL that time spent would not be done with transparency, they wouldn't wish to introduce a problem with no clear resolution or plan to the public..

    My personal issue is that they have made announcements on (only recently) websites, forums, and otherwise.. but I have not seen a single piece of personal mail or a personal notification of any kind despite having my product registered with them with all current information (phone, e-mail, mailing address).. That to me is a bit poor etiquette on them, but I'll give them the benefit of a doubt that they'll be addressing it in these ways once they find a system that works better than the current one they have in place..

    But assume I didn't go searching for an MxM card the past couple weeks while having my curiosity piqued.. Assume I went along unknowing, under the impression I would still have the ability to get one of these promised cards/upgrades in the future to see my 'window' (the current one being end of December) lost? I would be EXCEPTIONALLY pissed off at them for that. -- I see some claims they will be extending it 'indefinitely' but I don't see those updates made to the existing forms or anything official stating that..

    Ugh, this is SO problematic in so many ways..

    You're the one making a positive claim (i.e. you have the burden of proof) or suggesting or postulating the occurrence of some form of illegal or egregious activity done by or on behalf of MSI.. You're the one who has to prove that beyond reasonable doubt.. MSI doesn't need to show 'evidence to the contrary' of a dubious fabricated theory-claim.. And to presume you can, given a few dates to suggest general 'slowness' by the program, when it looks like they are making a concerted effort to 'try', seems like a very weak argument to me.. I would recommend putting that idea out of your head and avoid that silliness outright.

    Bash them all you want for their mistakes, point at what we KNOW and ask them to do better, but be careful treading into that 'conspiracy theory' territory..

    I haven't heard anything back, but I'm still within the 'two years'.. I'm sure I will keep the forum posted as things develop.. Given I'm now very invested.
     
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  3. Markafano

    Markafano Notebook Enthusiast

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    ryzeki, I agree with a lot of what you say however in the UK we have different laws and our contract is with the supplier, not with the manufacturer, I waited to hear what MSI offered and was disappointed by their offer.

    By waiting until now it means that it is unlikely I'll be able to get a full refund, (although at the very least it should be more than what MSI have offered), if I had contacted the retailer I bought it from instead of MSI it is likely that I would have had a case for a full refund, I still have but it is far weaker.

    Other options aside from a full refund include replacement of a similar product that has the same functions/performance or having a partial refund, which would be based on the premium payed for having bought an item because of a promised feature and that feature now lacking.

    It does not come close to the costs of offering a GPU only upgrade, why is there such a big difference in pricing between the UK and US trade ins? an MXM GPU card in a US laptop is completely transferable to the same UK laptop.

    Surely this thread should be about trying to get the best possible outcome for those people that bought MSI laptops with the GTX 9x0(m) GPU's afterall it is this group of the population that is suffering because of MSI's false advertising,and if that makes people aware of other routes that they can go down other than the MSI upgrade path then surely there is no problem with this?
     
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  4. spurst

    spurst Notebook Consultant

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    The atmospheric loss in value plaguing the old GT72/GT80 laptops is due to the lack of upgradability. However they were designed and billed at a premium price based on that future-proofing. Worse yet, they were marketed as such. I might get $2200 for my GT80, but that might have been $2600 had this laptop held true to its future-proofing claims. I look at this much the same as an automobile diminished value claim. Why am I absorbing that loss as the customer?

    I also feel that MSI should be providing the replacements at Manufacturer cost. There should be no profit margin on a design flaw. If they assess a value of $2100 to a GT80 and charge MSRP - there is a profit.

    For current model valuation, it would be nice if the FULL purchase price was rolled forward into the trade-in program. They have these numbers, as they are on the receipts we've registered with MSI.

    We could also take this another route... With these devices still under full warranty, and given the fact the devices are defective and do not adhere to the 2 generations of future GPU upgrades, couldn't they also be recalled? If my current GT80 died due to a catastrophic failure, what would MSI issue me at no cost if they were not able to repair my device?
     
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  5. KommandantKavu

    KommandantKavu Notebook Enthusiast

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    Right, those are the facts of the matter.

    However, speaking from the perspective of the promised feature of 'upgrade-ability' is the rub..

    The value of the system was in some ways dependent on that functionality. While the other components do diminish given new technology, the GPU's are the quintessential main factor here. If I had the option to purchase an upgrade vs purchasing and selling my laptop, you best bet that I'd be buying new GPU's..

    The 'new' and 'top of the line' titles tacked on to the new hardware package they're offering costs 'us' money outright.. which does make this deal a bit of a raw one.. I can see why some would be outright unimpressed by what MSI is offering, but hell, I'd be lying if I said I didn't like 'any' of the new features..

    I wouldn't call it 'after market', but I 'would' want to barter at a reseller value.. Obviously, a bit of a personal request.. it would be nice.. But you're right, I can't necessarily expect them to do that.. If they're going to go through with this trade program and push it out in it's integrity to the rest of the world, they may as well stick to a set numerical value that is consistent to avoid the problem of each individual exchange breaking their own deal because some reseller has the laptop valued '$X amount' cheaper this week and '$Y amount' some other.

    Absolutely.. Not just in e-mails, but on any official mention of this plan.. It's plainly confusing if not simply untrue..
     
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  6. Markafano

    Markafano Notebook Enthusiast

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    I don't understand your first section, I certainly was not fear mongering I was just pointing out the situation with UK Law.

    The first part of the R&D would be done in software using cad models based on manufacturer data, heat profiling, thermal dissipation, power requirements and cooling techniques would all have been looked at first before they would have even created a physical prototype/mockup.

    They would have known quite soon after the release of the GTX 10x0 series of GPU's the practicality of being able to use these same cards in GT72 or GT82 laptops.

    Evidence to the contrary? Why are they being so secretive then? Why has MSI UK taken so long to offer a new deal for those in the UK when it is practically the same as the first? There is absolutely no reason to do so.
    If it was completely different, completely remodelled etc. then I can understand this.
    Why not make life easier for themselves and copy the US upgrade format? making slight adjustments for exchange rates etc?

    Of course I can state that the general program has been slow, or are you telling me that they have sorted this out in a timely manner? Bear in mind that I am looking at this from a UK perspective, not a US perspective where you guys had responses well before we did.

    I contacted MSI in early September and did not hear anything until the middle of November when I phoned them up.
    As for burden of proof with the evience that we currently have to hand can you say that the only reason for them taking so long to find out that the nVidia GTX10x0 GPU would not be a compatible replacement for the GTX9x0(m) GPU is due to lack of staff in engineering, lack of staff in PR roles lack of staff in other relevant positions, with all this lack of staff i am surprised that they even manage to manufacture anything.

    I am happy to discuss why you think it had taken them so long, if you have extra information please let me know it would really be much appreciated, and until we get extra information we can only hypothesis and postulate on the true situation.

    Well I am so happy that you are alright and still within the 2 years but what about all the other people? What is the two year cut off date relevant to?
    and why have this cut off date?
     
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  7. MiSJAH

    MiSJAH Notebook Deity

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    Hi @Markafano can you share the entire email you received please?

    The only MSI Rep to post in this thread was Natalie from MSI UK.

    Points 1,2, and 3 are irrelevant when point 4 is considered: MSI has publicly stated the cost of the upgrade would be the same as if you only upgraded the GPU, so why are they not providing this? They should do away with it because it is a lie? a GTX 1070 produced by MSI can be purchased for $750 a GTX 970M would sell for at least $200, anyone upgrading to a GT73VR with matched CPU/RAM/SSDs should only be paying ~$550. That's pretty simple math. (The GT72VR is a feature set downgrade and should not be cosidered for the trade-upgrade program.

    MSI did not stick to their word on the MXM upgrade so introduced this scam, and yes it's a scam because they are not going to stick to their word with the cost of the upgrade would be the same as if you only upgraded the GPU.

    Do we need a further 300 pages of pissed off users trying to get MSI to display some integrity towards their customers?



    So what are you saying here, let MSI charge MSRP, when retailers are not, whilst retail are not involved in the trade-upgrade program, purely to gift additional funds to MSI for nothing?

    .

    This, what are MSI going to do for those that cannot afford the upgrade as the cost is higher than an MXM upgrade?


    I disagree about valuing our notebooks.

    The cost from 9 series GPU to 10 series should be the same no matter purchase price (I got my GT72 for aroung $1,300, as an open box).

    The cost to us all would have been the same if MSI had produced MXM cards, so there should be no difference with the program MSI are presenting as a solution to the problem they caused.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2016
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  8. MiSJAH

    MiSJAH Notebook Deity

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    I think we need to stop talking about the value of our notebook and be more specific about the value of our GPU's and the GPU's we want to upgrade to.

    This thread was started because MSI couldn't stick to their advertised promise.

    This time they can.

    The cost of the upgrade would be the same as if you only upgraded the GPU.
     
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  9. KommandantKavu

    KommandantKavu Notebook Enthusiast

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    My first section is responding to your claims that they're up to something nefarious.. That idea is also similarly couched in that last piece of sentiment I quoted up above. This is fallacious reasoning.

    I'm telling you to not postulate scenarios where MSI is intentionally delaying to either avoid responsibilities or knowingly and maliciously screw consumers.. You're depending on using arguments of incredulity for your basis when your understanding of their particular R&D life-cycle suggests that 'only a new system/remodeled' would be 'an understandable or reasonable excuse' to you..

    "Responses well before".. A matter of months? They've stated they will be addressing the UK now, I don't know why you're using these delays as evidence for bolstering your purported insight in knowing their intent.. Maybe it's because I'm used to seeing large scale programs take years to finish for major organizations that I don't find this as unbelievable as you do..

    This is also super weird, you wish to discuss things we both know we don't have ANY insight into.. And then you say well since we don't know, "all we can do is postulate"? -- No?.. Why the hell would I just ASSUME that they're doing bad things because it's not working in my/your favor. Need I whip out Hanlon's Razor here? -- Anyway, I think I'm done discussing their 'intents' and 'conspiracy' ideas..

    The only relevance I can pull to that is it's the 'limited warranty' time frame.. But I don't see why that should matter because this issue seems worthy of extending beyond it..
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  10. Markafano

    Markafano Notebook Enthusiast

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    Hi Markafano,
    Thanks for your inquiry.
    The Trade-in program in offering now in UK and the deadline of the inquiry will be on 31st Dec.
    Basically we will have a discount amount based on the value of your on-hand machine then you will be able to use that discount on the new GTX 10 series GT model you choose.
    The value of your laptop will be determined by the SRP at launch and the age of your notebook.
    You will be able to use this to trade up to selected MSI Notebooks featuring Nvidia GTX 1060 / GTX 1070 / GTX 1080.
    According to the data you provided to us, your discount amount will be £1259 based on 2 evaluations as follows:
    1. The original launch price of your on-hand machine GT72S 6GE-046UK is £1,799
    2. Your invoice date is 04/04/2016, we can accept the machine as long as it’s within 2years warranty.
    You will be able to use discount for new GTX 10xx series GT series models. Here is the model list you can choose, but please be noted that the stocks are moving every day, some models might be out of stocks time by time.



    MSI offer.png


    Please read our Terms and conditions here:
    1) This offer is valid ONLY for UK models. Please make sure the model nmber of your laptop ends with the "UK" Example"GS60 6QE/Ghost Pro)-093UK"
    2) The MSI notebook warrenty is NOT transferrable. Only the original owner of the laptop will be ableto participate in the trade-in program. Thelaptop will have tobe within its 2 years warranty.
    3) Acceptable forms ofpayment are bank transfer.
    4) We accpt no responsibility for loss of data and advise you to back up any important files before participating.
    5) Once your trade-in is received by us, pleaseallow up to 14 working days for inspection to ensure all OEM partsare present from receiving the unit and that the unit is in satisfactory condition (no physical damageto parts or laptop).
    6) Please remember to include all of the laptop parts including but not limited to SSD, RAM, HDD, cables, power supply etc. Any missing partswill be subjectto afull retail price charge. Any OEM defects will not be subject to a chargedue to warranty coverage.
    7) Once inspection has been completed, we will inform you of the final upgrade price so that you may decide to participate in or withdraw from the trade-in program.
    8) MSI are repsonsible for collecting the trade-in unit & shipping to our support centre.
    9) Once you acceptthe offer of the upgrade program you will have 2 weeksto arrange the collection. After this pariod, the offer will no longerbevalid.
    10) No alternative or cash will be offered. All MSI offers arefinal.
    11) No further trade in program will beoffered at a later date.

    We will send you the official agreement to sign then start thefollowing stepsonce you choose the new model, agreed statements above and attach the invoice to us.

    Thanks for your patience.
    Have a nice day.

    MSI UK Notebook
     
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