F-911

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Big Calhoun, Jul 13, 2004.

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  1. Big Calhoun

    Big Calhoun Notebook Evangelist

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    What is everyones take on the movie and the election situation in general??

    I saw the movie last week and thought it was pretty good from the standpoint that it was an entertaining documentary, not something I wish I didn't have to sit through. Facts wise, I'm still doing my research. Alot of the information I've heard before but there was definately some new tidbits that made me think. One of the things that got me was the Taliban visiting the US and the prez of Afghanistan working for/with Halliburton before taking office. Is it a skewed vision of what led up to 911?? Yeah, quite possibly. But at the same time, it hasn't been billed as "This is the cause of 9/11"; rather "This is what Bush could of/should of done". Overall, the whole situation was beyond what Bush could have done. Terrorists don't like us simply b/c we're American. I feel no matter who was in office, an attack would have happened eventually because of how we deal with the world.

    Election wise, I don't like Bush or Kerry. I don't trust either but for different reasons. Bush/Cheney are too secretive and there are too many inside dealings. Our government needs transparency. If it's for the people, by the people, of the people; then we, the people, need to know what the hell is going on and how it benefits our country. Kerry is too cavilier....I see visions of the Clinton era running through my head. He also doesn't seem to stand for anything, flip flopping on issues at overy photo op. His one saving grace is he chose Edwards as his running mate. I was really hoping that Edwards would get the nomination because he has a genuine interest in reforming government. He's also a southern boy, and the south produces leaders!!! I'd put Bush back in office if he gets rid of Cheney. Powell should be Bush's running mate; that would turn this race upside down.
     
  2. Quikster

    Quikster Notebook Deity NBR Reviewer

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    the problem with people saying bush should've done this or that before 9/11 is as follows:
    1) they have been threating to attack us since somewhere around 1996
    2) clinton was offered bin laden and said he didn't want him
    3) all of these complaints about oh they should've noticed this or that, were not pointed out or argued before it happend, its looking back and hindsight is said to be 20/20

    Also, Moore pretty much always uses what he wants how he wants out of context and with spins. He is anti-corporations believing they are all evil. He also, claims its not a movie to get rid of Bush and back Kerry, bc he is not a democrat, yet he is registerd as one in the state of new york. This is not a problem if he would just admit to his reasons and purpose and not lie about things easily traceable like his political backing.

    As far as Bush vs. Kerry I could never back Kerry for several reasons:
    1) like you said he flip flops all over the place, changing his stance and viewpoint depending on who he is talking to or what he wants to accomplish. He is constantly contradicting himself and coming up with things that don't make sense in the process of this flip flopping. He needs to take a stance and go with something for once in his life.
    2) I don't really agree with his platform or few ideas that seem to be consitent. Esp. how he justifies everything religous as seperation of church and state, which just doesn't work how he wants it. If he wont even stand by what he supposedly believes himself how can you expect him to stand for anything that he doesn't believe in.

    I like Bush because he at least carries out his threats unlike some we have made in the past. He also, surrounds himself with a lot of people that are the very best for the job, and not just putting everybody he knows in jobs they are no where near qualified for. I do agree though that Chenney should go and be replaced by Powell, making it pretty much an unstopable ticket then.

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  3. mathlete2001

    mathlete2001 Notebook Deity

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    Colin Powell for President!!!

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  4. Gatch

    Gatch Notebook Geek

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    I agree with some of what's been said here. I don't think any administration could have done much to prevent 9/11. My problem was with how Bush handled the aftermath. There was a huge opportunity to unite many different factions worldwide, and throughout the states. Instead of taking advantage of that sentiment and putting it to good use, Bush went the other direction. American foreign relations are now worse than they were before we were attacked. That's just bad politics which could have been avoided. I don't have a problem with business, it's neccesary for capitalism, but I think that Bush's relationship with several companies has led to bad decisions. I'm a pretty big proponent for the environment and I think his policies are doing more harm for the environment then they have done good for the economy. I'm also a bit pissed that he's opened up national forests for logging. However, my biggest gripe with Bush is how he has blurred the line between church and state. I admire strong moral convictions but I think it's extremely dangerous to have someone with that much power making decisions for the entire country based on one set of religious beliefs. I think the only way to legislate is by what's good for society and not what's dictated by your beliefs. I agree there is much overlap but all laws should be explained only in terms of societal good and not from a moral perspective. I'm glad Bush has surrounded himself with intelligent people but I don't think he has the capacity to control them. It seems that he is controlled himself and the intelligent opinions get thrown out.

    I have no misconceptions about Kerry. He was chosen because he had actual military experience and would possibly going into his presidency during a time of war. Edwards is definately a good choice for a running mate and the decision will probably set him up to run for the presidency in the future. Kerry hasn't run the best campaign and he isn't my idea of the best candidate but, in my opinion, he's the best candidate in this race.

    On the subject of Michael Moore his movie was worth seeing. It's not so much a documentary as it is a political essay. I believe the facts are true but a lot of the perceptions are false. I don't think Bush is evil or malicious. I just think he shouldn't be president anymore. Moore's movie will serve to only polarize voters either way. His approach, while somewhat funny, probably alienated as many swing voters as it converted. A more balanced and even portrayal of his facts would have probably helped Kerry out quite a bit but would not have been as entertaining. Had Moore been thinking like a party democrat he could have done a much better job. Instead he thought like an entertainer, as is his perogative, and went for making a controversial movie. I guess I could go on and on but that's enough of my opinion.
     
  5. Quikster

    Quikster Notebook Deity NBR Reviewer

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    Several things, first Bush may not be the peferct guy, but he is a hell of a lot better than Kerry. Kerry has already said he will raise taxes for corporations and get rid of many of the cuts. It has been proven time and time again that raising taxes slows or stops economy growth. He is also, very indecicive and both him and Edwards try to paint themselves as moderates.

    Yet, they are rated as the number 1 and 4 most liberal men in congress. Edwards basically bought his election and was expected to lose in the re-election and couldn't even win his own state which knows him best when he was in the primaries.

    As for Kerry's military record, like 90+% of the people he severed with have said that he did a poor job, and they do not want him as the leader of this country.

    Then for religon, this country is a large part christian and its laws and rules were based on christian and jewish laws and traditions as is most of the western world. Thus completely removing every facet of religon is nonsense. It plays a large part in our current laws and is a major part of our past and most of america's traditions. Then on the other hand you have Kerry who at least claims he believes what his religon does, yet everything he votes for and claims is the opposite of it.

    Since I don't feel like grabbing a bunch of links to back up the rest of my complaints at the moment I will leave it at this for now. In the meantime a very interesting article is available here:


    http://www.journalism.org/resources/research/reports/campaign2004/character/default.asp

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  6. spets

    spets Notebook Consultant

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    Problems w/ F911:

    http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
     
  7. Big Calhoun

    Big Calhoun Notebook Evangelist

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    Well, maybe documentary wasn't the best word to use. When I think of documentary, I'm thinking of a film relaying factual information versus telling a story. Now how accurate all of the facts were is up to debate, but in essence the film was a documentary.

    When it comes to military service, I don't feel that should be a deciding factor. Yes, it does help and does demonstrate respect for our country and our freedom, but would you want one of the soliders involved in the Abu Grahb scandal running the country?

    Personally, I feel religion should have nothing to do with our government and/or laws. Yes, alot of are laws are based on judeo-christian philosophy but that was because religion was the governing body in previous ages. Democracy is about the will of the people. Democracy in America is about understanding the will of the people is made up of a variety of cultural backgrounds and ethinicties. So it would seem to me that in deciding our laws, we must account for all of our residents. This I feel will be the next battle waged.

    All in all, this race is not exciting...more scary than anything. I don't know how much more Bush would be better than Kerry outside of having actual presidential experience. Kerry is a con artist, he casts his senate votes according to the tide. A prime example, Kerry votes to authorize the war but doesn't vote to continue funding. Regardless of where you stand, our people are over there and giving their lives!!! How can anyone justify sending our soldiers, but not giving them the support....and speak out against the war!! I dunno, maybe I'll vote for Nader.
     
  8. Gatch

    Gatch Notebook Geek

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    Big C, you make some good points. Judeuo-Christian values do represent the vast majority of our population. I disagree with Quikster that this is justification for allowing them to influence laws and legal decisions. It happens that many of our laws were based on a religious code. That's fine because most religious codes set up good rules for societies. My problem is when you have laws based solely on Religious morals and not on what's best for society. We don't live in a democracy we live in a repulic. Representative ruling was created for the sole purpose to limit the majority from completely controlling, and overriding the minority. I think religion is a very important topic that should be discussed and talked about in schools. I do not think that the government should take any actions that shows a preference towards one set of religious beliefs. I don't think Kerry should be president based soley on his war record but I was just pointing out that's a main reason he was nominated. His record wasn't being judged by anything other than in contrast to Bush's record during Vietnam. As for him being regarded as extremely liberal and going back and forth on issues you can't have it both ways. He either has a liberal record or a moderate record. I can tolerate someone who votes against what they believe if the public they represent feels very strongly about the issue. It's not something that's always appropriate but in some cases I think it's neccessary. As for the rest of Quiksters facts they sound very interesting and I would love to see where they came from. Thanks for the article link I wish everyone in this country (on both sides) read more in regards to elections and politics.
     
  9. Quikster

    Quikster Notebook Deity NBR Reviewer

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    sorry I'll try to dig up the links on the other things I posted last time.

    The reason I agree with religon being involved is the majority of americans go to church or are religous. the amount of atheists is less than 5% and the amount of agnostics is also a small percent. Thus with the majority of americans still having some religous values, and seeing as they are still a major souce for moral values in use today.

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  10. Big Calhoun

    Big Calhoun Notebook Evangelist

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    When you mix religion and politics, you are blurring the lines of law. Being an immoral person doesn't neccessarily make you a criminal. It just so happens that most immoral actions, as dictated by a variety of religions, happen to also be illegal. But if one chooses not to follow a particular religion (or any at all), does that make that person any more immoral or any more of a criminal than anyone else, absolutely not.

    I feel the overall problem is that our society is changing. Families aren't the same structure they once were, kids are growing up with less direction, corruption seems to be more prevalent, and our tolerance towards 'indecency' has become greater. The 'majority' in this country feels that we, as a people, have lost our way to religion and that has contributed to this breakdown. But the face of this country is changing....it's no longer just Christians...it's Muslims, Jews, Bhuddists, Aetheists, Pagans, etc. etc. That moral fabric that is slowly ripping away is controlled more by the actions of our society rather than our adherence to religion. Look at entertainment as it has changed over time. Entertainers try to shock us more and more to benefit their pockets. We see this shocking behavior over and over again and condition ourselves to accept it, whether or not we agree with it. That isn't governed by religion, that's all about personal preferences and values. The real issue is that we need to look at ourselves and take stock of where we are, not turn back to the church. The church didn't help the victims of the sex abuse scandals...if anything, they did more for the priests that abused people. Religion is a personal choice and should stay that way. It has no place in our laws or politics at this time in history. It seems like the whole church abuse scenario has caused people to reevaulate themselves, but in the wrong fashion....placing blame where it doesn't belong (Entertainment, Society in general) instead of looking at the source of the problems (Home, Parents).
     
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