[Conference Call] Nvidia GeForce GTX 580M 78C° Throttling [SEE POST #191 and later]

Discussion in 'Alienware 17 and M17x' started by DELLChrisM, Feb 28, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Redeka

    Redeka Notebook Consultant

    Reputations:
    4
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    30
    I listened to the majority of the call, and after learning that FurMark should run without hitting the 78c mark I downloaded the app and gave it a run. is it normal for my card to be dropping from 20fps to 1 fps at the 63-64c mark?
     
  2. Dell-Bill_B

    Dell-Bill_B Guest

    Reputations:
    2,494
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    56
    For heat sink replacements, please send a PM to DellChrisM with your service tag, email address, ship to address (or where you want field service to happen), and daytime contact numbers. If you have more than one phone number you want to provide, please note which is the primary and which is the secondary. If you just want parts only, just give Chris your service tag, email, and ship to address.

    I strongly urge you to literally watch the service provider like a hawk and politely interrupt him/her if you see something happening you don't like. You shelled out a lot of money for these systems, and it's our view you deserve to have your concerns addressed as best we or our service providers can at any point in time.

    Thank you to all who joined the call. It was a pleasure. We'll do more in the future. John or Chris will probably run the next one, or we may bring the new external community manager (also a big gamer and super geek) into the fray. Special thanks go out to YodaGoneMad and widezu69 for raising awareness of the issue and putting the call together.
     
  3. Jody

    Jody Notebook Deity

    Reputations:
    339
    Messages:
    1,093
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    56
    Thank you for the recap, Yoda. One of my main takeaways from the call was that if you are experiencing game stopping throttles then there is most likely something wrong with your GPU assembly whether it's the thermal pads, warped backplate or heatsink. Something is wrong. If you are seeing the occasional dropping of a few frames per second then your GPU may be performing to spec but your game is pushing it very hard.

    If you are a benchmarking fiend wanting to OC and push everything to the hairy edge then the 580m may not be for you. I got it because I wanted a 3D screen and I don't regret it. The 3D is an awesome feature in my book.

    At least that's what I got out of the call. Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting that.
     
  4. YodaGoneMad

    YodaGoneMad Notebook Deity

    Reputations:
    555
    Messages:
    1,382
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    56
    That would be the power throttle we talked about at the start of the call. It kicks in at 63C and is avoided with the vBios mods, in terms of Dells perspective and engineering desires, yes, that is normal.
     
  5. blink_c

    blink_c Notebook Consultant

    Reputations:
    182
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Thank you very much for the update. So, given that I do hit the 78 degrees Celcius throttle with stock vBIOS and clocks, are they giving us newer designed parts? For example, I know they could send most people a 6990 as a replacement, but with the my 3D screen, that's not an option.

    Anyways, thanks all that were involved. It's awesome that this could be put together. As Yoda said, it's a bit disappointing, especially knowing that we don't really have the most powerful machines out there when that's what we thought we were getting, lol. I'm glad a company can reach out to us like this though.
     
  6. xorbex

    xorbex Notebook Enthusiast

    Reputations:
    0
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    Very dissapointing that there will be no fix to this. We all payed hard earned $$ for a computer that can't play games properly when it is designed to play games. Dell should be replacing the cards wuth an equivelant or better 600 series when they are lauched (that is of course if they create bios support.)
     
  7. YodaGoneMad

    YodaGoneMad Notebook Deity

    Reputations:
    555
    Messages:
    1,382
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    56
    That is basically accurate, with one caveat. Dell is counting on the 63C throttle which many (almost all) of us enthusiast users have removed. With the power throttle removed even a perfectly functioning cooling system (like mine, which averages 65C during gaming on stock fans) can hit the 78C throttle.

    There was that talk about the fact that what we see for GPU utilization is just a frame buffer, and that what really matters is the number of shaders used. Thus, you might be fine a lot of the time, then hit a scene that is suddenly using the majority of the 384 shaders and your temp spikes. It is these situations that my HWINFO fan mod really helps with, because it reacts extremely quickly to that temperature spike, where-as the engineer said the default fan profiles waits for the card to be above a certain temp for a certain amount of time before kicking up, and that wait might be long enough that you hit 78C and throttle especially if you have removed the power throttle.
     
  8. YodaGoneMad

    YodaGoneMad Notebook Deity

    Reputations:
    555
    Messages:
    1,382
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    56
    They will be giving you a full set of the newest parts. Basically, you might not have the right parts or might not have them perfectly installed, and the 580m is cutting it so close to the specs that even a single loose screw on the heat sink will kill you.

    I can confirm that with a perfectly installed cooling system and the mods on this forum the throttling is not really an issue. I have the vBios mod installed to eliminate the power throttle. I overclock 20%. Most of the time I just run stock fan settings and am just fine, the few times I hit 78C using my HWINFO mod fixes it. If you are not having a similar experience than you should get your cooling system replaced.
     
  9. PhoenixBennu

    PhoenixBennu Notebook Enthusiast

    Reputations:
    0
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    I do a lot of posting on the facebook page, and shared the info with them there, and wanted to post here as well, as I was trying to recap everything.

    I hope I got everything needed, and didnt mess any of it up.

    ------------------------------------

    Conference call took place with dell reps, and I have to thank them for taking the time to have the conference call. I wont go into too many details about it, because some of the topics discussed are a little beyond the scope of the Facebook page, and, frankly, I may not remember every detail that was discussed, but here are some bullet points.
    (please excuse the typos, I'm trying to wrangle my peanut butter covered son and type this at the same time lol)



    1. Repasting or doing any similar work on your computer WILL NOT VOID THE WARRANTY unless you break something. If you want to take apart every single screw and panel and part from your computer and reassemble it, repaste it, get out the paints and paint your name on it, or whatever...it will still be under warranty. The only thing to void it would be if you do something to cause damage to it, with the exception of that damage happening through instruction of a tech on the phone leading you through the steps.

    2. The thermal paste on the 580m is better than mx4, arctic, etc. When you repaste it with something different you are actually increasing the issue.

    3. The issue is all about cooling. Because of the smaller form factor, and the smaller fans, and the limited venting on the m17x r3 the heat increases more so than the m18x or desktops. This is a "duh" kinda thing, but explained more in the next point.

    4. The heat is actually pushed to the edge on the system. The heat comes from the fact that the 580m draws more power than the 6990 (about 20% more). and therefore more amps and current control issues. This is a big concern for the i/o port of the card, the skin temps, and other temp issues. So the P0 state being the norm for high use, then clocks go down to P1 which is supposed to slow temp increase (essentially a 20% throttling), but not necessarily lower it, then once it hits 78C it goes into P8 state which then throttles it heavier.

    5. Different directx versions, and driver versions can have a big impact. Seeing as shaders vary from one directx version to another, and different drivers can have their own set of variances which can impact use.

    6. Ambient temps are tested around 28C (a little over 80F), so ambient temps should not be a big concern under than mark. However, ambient temps will still play a role, and can help reduce laptop temps.

    7. The power throttling (movement to P1) takes place at 63C

    8. (Quoted from YodaGoneMad on notebookreview.com) "There was that talk about the fact that what we see for GPU utilization is just a frame buffer, and that what really matters is the number of shaders used. Thus, you might be fine a lot of the time, then hit a scene that is suddenly using the majority of the 384 shaders and your temp spikes."

    9. The m18x does have the throttle but doesnt have an issue hitting it like the m17x does. The 6990m also has a throttling point.


    There are no plans right now, and probably will not be any in the future, to remove the throttling. It is there for a reason, mainly because of temp specification concerns and safety, but they should not be a continuous impact on your system, and therefore should be addressed if they are. Talks are in the works, however, about other issues such as with the bios, fan speeds, and other aspects that may directly or indirectly impact the throttling issue.



    Ways to help alleviate the issue:

    First off, understand that if you are hitting the heat throttle at 78C frequently, then you need to contact tech support. Need to make sure that your heat sink, fans, card, pasting, back plates, etc are all setup properly. A quick tech visit can assure this. There are assemblies available that are already pre-assembled and then shipped and can make it easier to just change out without need for repaste.

    If you are hitting the throttle limit occasionally and not after every 5 minutes playing a game, some other things can help:

    1. Check the basics. Increase airflow. Done have something blocking the fan outputs. Using some spray to clean out the fans, etc.

    2. Custom fan speeds. Using HWiNFO64 you can set customer fan speeds that will be more aggressive than stock fan speeds. This can increase cooling performance.
    Recommended set would be to set sensor to "Compal EC", reading the "GPU", with the following speeds:
    0C=2000RPM
    40C=2500RPM
    50C=3000RPM
    60C=3500RPM
    70C=4000RPM
    80C=4500RPM

    3. Installing a new driver, vBios, or other software changes that may assist as being directly related or impactful on the gpu

    4. Using a tool to disable powermizer (there are many different tools out there)

    5. Using Nvidia Inspector or other tool to manually correct clock speeds and P states.

    6. Making sure everything else is up to date. Other issues, like bad game installs, directx installs, increasing temps from other parts of the system, etc can be indirectly impactful
    -----------------------------------



    Edit: Forgot to note:

    From the conference call today, with all that went on, its kinda hard to remember it all, but one other thing I wanted to point out. For those having hdmi-in issues, it is a driver issue. Whats happening is that when you plug something in to the hdmi-in port, the driver is shutting off the i/o port for the card since it believed there is another i.o option to override it. If you roll back to an older driver (before 285 I believe) you wont have this issue.

    It is being worked on, but no resolution as of yet. Primarily in discussion with nvidia to correct.
     
  10. DarKStreetS

    DarKStreetS Notebook Enthusiast

    Reputations:
    33
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    15
    Hi guys, I want to say a big thank you to all of you who have pulled this conference call together. Although I must admit that I wasn't expecting a major solution to the throttling problem, it was nice to find out the reasons behind the issue.

    I have a question that I would like to be addressed if possible. From Bills post I understand that people who experience the throttling issue can request full replacement parts or get an field engineer to replace it for them. I would like to know if those parts would be new or refurbished? Thanks.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page