Clevo Co. Market NEWS and Performance discussions

Discussion in 'Sager and Clevo' started by Dr. AMK, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Mr. Fox

    Mr. Fox Undefiled BGA-Hating Elitist

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    Knowing what I know now, better than fair chance I would skip the laptop thing if I could not have a Clevo monsterbook with @Prema firmware. Knowing what most people know, which is not very much, hell yeah. If I absolutely had to buy something crippled, then yes... rather have a crippled Clevo with a socketed CPU and GPU than a crippled and castrated something else with CPU and/or GPU soldered to the mobo. But, that does nothing to excuse the mess or diminish the magnitude of their sins and crimes against customers. At this time my advice (for myself and anyone that is in a position to do the same) is if you can't get a Clevo with @Prema firmware, just say no to notebooks. Spend the money on a desktop and use a really cheap (under $500) laptop for mobility. Maybe get one from a yard sale or Craigslist, use it until it dies, then toss it into a dumpster. At some point they all, not just Clevo, need to begin to reap a harvest from the lameness and mediocrity they have sown. Pain is a very useful tool in behavior modification. When things are right with the world, only the strong survive. The panty-waist circus in high performance and gaming wussbooks needs to stop.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  2. Papusan

    Papusan JOKEBOOKS = That sucks!! STAHP! Dont buy FILTH...

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    You can in fact get hold on a cpu who run cool and with lower wattage (it's LGA) Aka replace what you already got (a bad or medium quality chips). You are screwed no matter with BGA. Clevo is the only option whatever you say.
     
  3. BeastsForever.TheDragon

    BeastsForever.TheDragon Notebook Evangelist

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    You got what i wanted to say!!! CHEERS!!!!!
     
  4. XMG

    XMG Company Representative

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    There are definitely potential buyers out there like you, but in particular those who work in industry or B2B customers do not look at things in the same way. Products are bought to serve a purpose, they need to be stable, be reliable and perform well, but they aren't pushed to the level that enthusiasts push them (in general). For example, the most popular laptop that we sell to VR customers in the industry are the P65* (XMG P507) with 1070 and P775 with 1070/1080. From direct feedback I can tell you that our P507 customers find this laptop performs much better and doesn't throttle to the extend that other "slim" performance laptops do that they have also used. It has a perfect combination of portability and performance, in the eyes of or customers anyway. In fact, the performance of the P507 is a key aspect for them compared to similar products on the market. This argument could be classed as mainly subjective, because each user (remember I'm only talking about industry customers and users) has a different usage case and differnt requirements - but it's also an objective argument based on fact and direct feedback.

    I appreciate that I could be opening a can of worms with the above statement, but I ask that it's taken on face value - I wouldn't say these things unless they were grounded in direct experience and feedback - in the context of the discussion and reply to the specific question @jclausius asked.

    I can't give an exact figure, but I am in somewhat of a priveledged position because of my experience of the industry and my position in that industry. You can do simle maths, based on the number of downloads from Prema vs the number of laptops that are sold globally every year - or you can look at the number of resellers who offer Prema BIOS, their approximate sales numbers (which btw I don't of course have any access to but have a good idea of the market share based on a number of publically available information and other factors) vs the ones who don't offer Prema. You can't say that every Prema download or sale from a Prema partner equalls a Clevo sale which wouldn't have happened if Prema didn't exist - so the more you look into the topic the more complex and less accurate it becomes. Do 5% of Clevo laptops in circulation which could have Prema firmware installed indeed have it installed - not even close. In my humble but educated opinion we're talking about fractions of a percent. With the greatest of respect (and I mean that, it's not just something to allow me to make a statement) this forum and the discussion on it, whilst valid and valued, which should be pushed in order to initiate change and improvement, do not reflect the vast bulk of the customer base.

    We don't provide a completely unlocked BIOS, but in some models like the DM3 there are more options opened up that what one would consider a stock and completely closed BIOS. Some of these options are actually opened up by Clevo in stock BIOS, some are special adjustments or unlocked options. There's a completely separate discussion I could have regarding why the direct Clevo customers have less flexibility to offer third party modified/hacked firmware - it's been discussed at length multiple times in the past so I won't get into it now! Prema knows us and we know him, but there's a limit to how much we can work on together and this would be the same for any ODM, it's in no way limited to Clevo.
     
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  5. Prema

    Prema Your Freedom, Your Choice

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    Jesus guys, be nice to XMG. He's one of us! :)
     
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  6. jclausius

    jclausius Notebook Virtuoso

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    I'll agree with you for a business / professional software developer that stability is a key aspect in a business machine. It has to be. Downtime equals money. If I can't code, compile, design, debug, or whatever, it is costing the company.

    I and pretty much everyone of my peers (from developers at Microsoft, Yelp, Yahoo!, GitHub, general contractors etc.) all need some decently powered machine. Some of these folks are limited to corporate purchasing agreements for hardware, and their company would never set them up with a Clevo/MSI in the first place. (Poor saps.) However, I have a bit of flexibility, and have the option on the Clevo route.

    Now, I don't think I'd push a machine as hard as @Mr. Fox, @Trafficante, @Johnksss, but I'm defintely pushing the machine more than your average browser, word processor, or gamer. I need to run concurrent multiple operating systems (within virtual machines), multiple virtualized devices (iPhones, iPads, Android Phones, Tablets, etc.) running 500G+ databases against web servers. To do this, The hardware requires a minimum of 32 to 64GB RAM, 8+ core CPUs, 24+ PCIe lanes for NVME drives. Also, if you're a contractor, the machine needs to be somewhat mobile in order to travel meet/show your job's progress to clients. Oh, I should mention, the machine should be configured to not heat up a 22C room to 30 to 35C. It's a tall order to get all of this in a laptop.

    Here, the high-end Clevos almost meet these requirements, but it is not quite there, and Clevo has made no progress on this front in the past 12-18 months. I would like them to improve the quality of their keyboards, improve the QC of their heat sinks/fans and provide a BIOS that is not so locked down that I cannot undervolt when needed. The lack of these things changed my mind in purchasing last year.

    Unfortunately, being located in the US, I don't know anyone with an XMG system, but if XMG takes the time to clean up some of these issues, then kudos to you and XMG. I appreciate that, and hope your customers do too.

    In the meantime, the fact that these complaints keep coming up appears to be nonchalance on the part of Clevo, and that is disappointing.
     
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  7. jclausius

    jclausius Notebook Virtuoso

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    Previous post was to explain what *my* needs... But one more point I'd like to make.

    I don't know if Clevo considers designing systems for my demo group ( the professional software developer/contractor ) or other professional groups like CAD systems, professional graphic artists, scientific data researches, etc. My guess is as a group we don't have the numbers when compared to gamers, but I would hope it is something that Clevo still considers. To me it seemed 15-20 years ago, they did consider me and my ilk in their DTR offerings, those were some solid machines. But lately, I wonder if that is no longer the case.
     
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  8. XMG

    XMG Company Representative

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    Thanks :) Tmash was being sarcastic wasn't he/she? I thought so, but now the acount is blocked...............
     
  9. XMG

    XMG Company Representative

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    Thanks for spending the time to expand on the earlier posts, it's always interesting and very informative to have this kind of feedback.

    "To do this, The hardware requires a minimum of 32 to 64GB RAM, 8+ core CPUs, 24+ PCIe lanes for NVME drives" - RAM, well you're there already for several years now. CPU - we have 6 Core Intel now but anything more would require a serious redesign/completely new chassis and I wonder what the real potential of this sort of hardware really is. Same for NVME support - 24+ PCIe lanes for storage is massive!!!!!

    "I would like them to improve the quality of their keyboards, improve the QC of their heat sinks/fans and provide a BIOS that is not so locked down that I cannot undervolt when needed. The lack of these things changed my mind in purchasing last year.

    Unfortunately, being located in the US, I don't know anyone with an XMG system, but if XMG takes the time to clean up some of these issues, then kudos to you and XMG. I appreciate that, and hope your customers do too."

    Keyboards - this is pretty subjective, I'm not sure if you mean quality or functionality i.e. do they break too easilly, feel cheap or that you don't like the action of the keys?

    Heatsinks - common dicussion topic. In fact, we spent a LOT of time working on this internally, taking thermal images of the heatsinks and heatpipes under different loads and in multiple systems in order to put together a complete set of data and performance so that not only could we compare how the heatsinks performance chassis model to chassis model, but also so that we could gauge the variance of multiple units of the same heatsink model. This testing wasn't just conducted to keep the information in house - if you understand.

    Undervolting - this has been an option with stock BIOS on the desktop PC chassis for what must be over a year now if I'm not mistaken, it's also easilly possible on a software level such as with Intel XTU. Of course we also offer speed binned delidded CPUs and other options such as custom EC fan profiles, but we have to keep a balance in what we offer.
     
  10. Meaker@Sager

    Meaker@Sager Company Representative

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    Yes, with the release of the KM series undervolting was included in the stock BIOS.
     
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