BGA Venting Thread ;)

Discussion in 'Sager and Clevo' started by FredSRichardson, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    I didn't realize the difference was that big from Haswell to Skylake. I did notice my old Ultrabook seems horribly sluggish at times. It's funny what you get used to ;)

    I've also been wondering about this. It first happened with cars - over time you couldn't do much with them. Now there are cars for enthusiasts and it is a niche market.

    I still build my own PCs as I'm sure a lot of folks on NBR do, but our days for doing that may be numbered. It will probably become another enthusiast niche.

    As an outsider I really like following what other enthusiasts do and I want them to be able to keep doing their thing. So I applaud @Phoenix @Papusan @Mr. Fox @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER and several others for their enthusiasm and dedication. It is really neat to see what they are doing with the new P870DM3. That thing is a beast. @Prema has done wonders with it and they are all in unlocked heaven =D

    But I do not see myself entering into their elite ranks. I am not the right demographic. I need to be able to travel and game on the road.

    In short, I am a fan of enthusiasts and I guess I am a gaming laptop enthusiast.
     
  2. Stooj

    Stooj Notebook Deity

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    I don't doubt or belittle what the guys in the OC lounge are doing. They are pulling extremely good numbers from those machines. I just mean in a practical sense, if you actually need that performance for practical use (not just a benchmark) it's easily farmed out.

    I totally get the OC bug. I've overclocked almost all of my machines in some form, creeping the GPU clock every little bit to get more points in Firestrike is fun. I pushed the 970M in my P750DM until the VRMs couldn't give any more, not because the core couldn't take it (ended up faster than a 980M in fact).
    But that is a separate pursuit to actually getting things done. It's kind of like how you can drop a big V8 motor in 4-door saloon car just to get a 10 second quarter mile. But if you want to race around a track and win medals you need a proper race car.

    3 people, out of how many people you know that have laptops? It's an exceedingly small number.

    For people in their warranty periods, most manufacturers actually replace motherboards quite a lot. Dell/HP do this on a very regular basis and they ship a LOT of units. They wouldn't do it if it wasn't practical.

    People who get here are usually technically inclined anyway and either seeking help or seeking to do more with their machines. Be careful not to echo-chamber yourself by equating the numbers here as any kind of majority. For every 1 person here who gets into overclocking or hardware replacement there are probably dozens of other users who just use their machines without issues so you never hear from them.

    But why is it "normal" to you? A CPU is only part of a computer system. The GPU core is just a processor skewed for certain workloads. It used to be all done on the CPU anyway. From a purely technical perspective it's no different. In fact, it's precisely what a dedicated Xeon Phi server looks like.

    One thing to consider, is that the large variety of CPU models was due to cost and also binning procedure. As manufacturing reliability grows you start having "fewer" bins anyway and the cost is effectively the same for all of them. This is why you see far fewer models to choose from now and I suspect the numbers would suggest a large number of buyers gravitate to a few "key" skews and largely ignore everything in between. So in reality, taking something like the Dell XPS 15 for example, they just offer the i5 version and i7 version and that's it. They sell thousands of these and would know very well which ones they need to stock.

    I've worked in enterprise hardware replacement for a couple of years now. Replacing a motherboard in a laptop takes 30 minutes once you've read the procedure and understand how the majority of connectors work. I'm not saying it's easier, just not that hard. Ask anybody with an enterprise on-site parts warranty. Techs are often sent out to replace motherboards because it really isn't that hard and you've already lost the time/money in sending somebody on-site anyway. Many enterprise laptops are even designed with that in mind.

    Good lord man, 8 YEARS. I'm all for sticking it to the man but that's just insanity. There is a perfectly fine point (of around 3-4 years I reckon) where something can be replaced just because of new features/performance/efficiency. In the case of laptops, efficiency is a big one which increases almost every hardware generation.

    Technically, my old i7-2600K@4.4-4.6ghz desktop was "fine". But I'll be damned if I'm using that monster in another Australian summer with 40C temps.
     
  3. TomJGX

    TomJGX I HATE BGA!

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    I think the throttling and poor binning were one of the major reasons for all the complaints and hate.. If Intel weren't selling all the junk as BGA, the hate around it would had been much less..

    Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk
     
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  4. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    Do you think the story changed at all from Haswell to Skylake for their BGA version? I was not too impressed with my Haswell BGA Ultrabook, but it is a lower end low power version so I don't know if I can compare it to my new awesomeness (which is the Skylake BGA Clevo).

    I would really like to think that the manufacturing standards have improved. I mean this makes economic sense that it would (HP and Dell do not like returned units). I'm not sure if they deal with this by just throttling down the chips, but maybe it's a combination of the two...?
     
  5. Galm

    Galm "Stand By, We're Analyzing The Situation!"

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    Most Haswell cpus throttled that were soldered. For example like the Razer Blade really couldn't hold it's clock speeds, but it can with the 6700HQ for the most part.

    However the U series ones didn't make that much of a difference.
     
  6. Papusan

    Papusan JOKEBOOKs Sucks! Dont waste your $$$ on FILTHY

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    Here are a few horror stories you can read about BGA. This is food for thought!!:rolleyes: One of many reasons Hardcore performance enthusiasts would not touch BGA JOKEBOOK*s with a ten-foot pole.
    http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/why-is-my-alienware-15-cpu-throttling-to-800-mhz.777144/
    http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/alienware-15-r1-cpu-issue-warning.788446/
     
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  7. Blacky

    Blacky Notebook Prophet

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    @Papusan I think you nailed it.
    There is a market for BGA CPUs and soldered GPUs undoubtedly, but that market is not the highend market. Bare in mind that Intel has been making BGA CPUs for many years, in fact most of their CPUs were offered in both BGA and PGA packages, but producers opted for the PGA version. It was Intel's decision to force everyone to use BGA. For them it makes sense, for every dead mobo or GPU they sell a CPU.
    ex: http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i7/Intel-Core i7-3840QM Mobile processor - AV8063801104100.html - it's BGA

    Truth is, no one will mind much if ultrabooks are all soldered or cheap laptops are soldered, at the end of the day, they have components cheap enough that you won't win or lose much if you replace the whole motherboard.
    When it comes to high-end laptops, things change, video cards are worth $300-$700, processors $200-$400 and the mobo is still $100-$150, having all 3 tied together will reduced the life span of notebooks and increase service costs. The ability to upgrade your CPU or video card down the road is more of an enthusiast thing, but enthusiasts are usually the main purchasers of gaming laptops.

    I feel we are back at the 16:10 vs 16:9 debate. I have been using my laptop for so long because I refuse to give up my 120 vertical pixels, I am a practical person and as long as I can do my work well on it, there is no need to gimp myself.
    On my desktop I have moved to 16:9, but using 4K and 2.5K resolutions with proper scaling and you actually gain some vertical space!

    At the end of the day I will buy a Clevo with a soldered CPU once they provide a P670 with 2.5K screens.
     
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  8. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    Yeah looks like the Haswell HQ BGA processors were a disaster.

    I haven't seen any throttling issues with my i7-6820HK. I think the big difference between and the prior generation is power consumption.

    But I understand. Trusting Intel after that saga would be tough.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
     
  9. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    I would be more concerned about surface mount GPU. Especially a pair of 1080s. Are they socketed on the P870DM3?

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
     
  10. Papusan

    Papusan JOKEBOOKs Sucks! Dont waste your $$$ on FILTHY

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    Call it what it is.., BGA:D
    Of course they are socketed:cool: socket hardware all around. If not would that machine be a Jokebook like all other!!
     
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