BGA Venting Thread ;)

Discussion in 'Sager and Clevo' started by FredSRichardson, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    @Stooj - Excellent count perspective with some very good points. I was thinking that surface mount components have been a reality for quite some time. But I do get that traditionally CPUs have always been socketed. I have to admit that I have never replaced a CPU in a desktop machine - I usually end up upgrading mobo/gpu/cpu. I have been able to keep the PSU and the case so far.

    Now now.. =)

    I've been following the overclocker's thread and those guys have been doing some insane things with the new P870DM3. I'm not sure this is something I would purchase myself (were talking over $4K which I can't currently imagine), but the beast has 2 x 1080 SLI and a desktop i7-6700K CPU. The benchmarks are impressive. But this is for a different breed of enthusiast than me =)
     
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  2. Blacky

    Blacky Notebook Prophet

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    [*]Not, it's not fine and has never been fine. It's why people who buy laptops with expensive GPUs and know a thing or two about computers search for laptops with MXM cards. There used to be a time in 2009-2010 when even mid-tier laptops had MXM cards. But those days are gone.

    There are quite a few, I myself know 3 non-tech knowledgeable people that did it. They didn't do it themselves, there are laptop shops which provide the CPUs and do the replacement. But replacement is only part of the problem, the problem is that when something gets broken on your motherboard, now you basically need a new laptop, not an $100 new motherboard.
    Many people actually replace their MXM GPUs and this forum is a testimony to that. In fact my laptop has lasted this long because it has an MXM video card, otherwise I would have thrown it away 3 years ago. If you plan to keep a laptop for more than 3 years I encourage people to buy a laptop with a separate video card. Doesn't need to be MXM. My old Dell had a dedicated video card which was non-MXM, thanx to that I was able to keep my laptop going for longer since I had 2 video card failures in that machine.
    It's normal to be that way because the GPU is only part of the video card solution, a socketable GPU on a video card PCB makes no sense.
    I don't have enough information to know how much cheaper it is. But I can tell you this: if you are a big company that sells configurable models, let's say like Dell or HP where users can choose from various CPUs, you either have to make a large stock of motherboards + cpus based on predicted market demand or you have to solder the CPU on the motherboard at the assembly stage based on what the consumer has opted for. In either scenario, that is going to increase your production costs.

    You can replace it, problem is you can seriously damage the CPU during the process unless you have very good equipment which is very expensive. The same applies to GPUs, I had one GPU replacement failure, because the re-soldering process damaged the GPU. I don't know where you can find a cheap motherboard+cpu ... and why buy a new motherboard when I only need the CPU? Plus the pain of replacing a laptop motherboard, replacing a CPU on a socket is significantly easier than on a whole motherboard replacement.

    This is basically the only solution right now, but it would make laptops too complicated and thick. It might make sense for some producers like Clevo for whom the models are basically built on demand.

    Depends on a lot of factors. This is generally true for lower and mid-tier laptops, not so much for gaming laptops.


    This is true. But if you want to keep your laptop for more than 2-3 years, high performance CPUs in notebooks start to make sense.

    To sum up, the three reasons my laptop has lasted 8 years and I can still play Dota 2 on it :

    1. Socketable CPU which I was able to upgrade
    2. MXM video card which I was able to replace when it failed
    3. Good motherboard build quality

    Without these elements I would have replaced my laptop probably 5 years ago. I guess that's why producers decided to drop all of the above :) . It doesn't help them earn money.


    ???? Last time when I replaced a motherboard it took me 3 hours, CPU replacement takes me 20 minutes. I cannot image how it is easier to replace a motherboard vs a CPU unless you simply throw away the laptop and give the customer a new one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  3. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    I need to travel with my laptop. This impacts the laptop form factor (size and weight) and the laptop lifespan (wear and tear).

    I got 3+ years out of a $1200 commodity Ultrabook. I hope to get 5+ years out of my $2400 gaming Clevo but I expect that to be a stretch. I would never expect to get 8 years out of a laptop.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
     
  4. Prostar Computer

    Prostar Computer Company Representative

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    I may be in the minority here in subscribing to the school of thought that BGA is not the technological dreg that many PGA patrons make it out to be, even though I understand the disdain. A system's overall design seems more important.
     
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  5. jclausius

    jclausius Notebook Virtuoso

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    Just like a building on a poor foundation will fail, a computer system based on a poor foundation is destined for problems.
     
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  6. Meaker@Sager

    Meaker@Sager Company Representative

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    It really comes down to what you after, weight, size and maintenance wise. Hating the fact that most people have different priorities that yourself never made sense to me.
     
  7. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    It sounds to me like the criticism is leveled against surface mount CPUs and GPUs in general and not specifically against BGA which is just a surface mount technology.

    For cell phones and tablets we've grown used to monolithic devices and again I think the Ultrabooks have evolved from this.

    But even with the Ultrabooks some things are sacred. If the RAM and primary SSD were surface mount in an Ultrabook it would draw a lot of criticism. The cellphone companies on the other hand have forced us to accept fixed memory and storage on our cellphones.

    I certainly expect to be able to upgrade RAM and disk space on my laptops. The disk is especially important because I just keep installing more stuff, but RAM usage also tends to creep up over time (system wipes definitely help with this). I often wait and upgrade the disk size by a factor of 2 when I can. Every now and then I do this for RAM as well.

    Someone else can perhaps enlighten me, but I more dubious of getting a huge gain from upgrading my CPU. It would be interesting to know if in a double-blind test you could see any difference in user experience (outside of benchmarking) running programs on the P650RS with the i7-6700HQ vs the i7-6820HK. Even with a newer generation upgrade the difference may not be that big.

    If I could only choose on socketed component between the two, I think I would choose a socketed GPU over a socketed CPU simply because I will be able to run newer games. I don't believe a 30% boost in CPU performance is going to make a huge difference to me in my day to day laptop usage.

    If I cared a lot about OCing it would matter to me though (especially for a very high end laptop!).
     
  8. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    I have to agree with this. I don't think there is "one laptop to rule them all" :)

    Right now the right laptop is largely determined by requirements (weight, size, battery life, usage).

    I liked my Ultrabook's form factor so much I initially considered getting a Razor. With adjusted expectations that might have been okay (that is running old games or new games on low settings). But I have to thank @Galm for helping me see the light. The P650RS-G has so far worked out very well. I get to test drive it on travel in a few weeks ;)
     
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  9. Meaker@Sager

    Meaker@Sager Company Representative

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    I think there is a healthy place for both kinds, I would not remove either.
     
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  10. Galm

    Galm "Stand By, We're Analyzing The Situation!"

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    Honestly with the Skylake series soldered chips not throttling horribly like the Haswell ones I don't care that much. I had a 4710mq, and it was pretty bad compared to my 6820hk.

    I'm glad you like your machine, I still love my P650RS. I can't see a reason why I would want to sacrifice how portable it is. The P750 and Eurocom and so much bigger. The Clevo doesn't bother me but my old MSI GT60 was a pain to lug around.

    The real difference for me is that only socketed has the desktop cpus. If the 6700k was offered as a soldered chip I wonder how the dynamic would change around here with socketed no longer be "way" (like 10% OC vs OC) higher performing.
     
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