BGA Venting Thread ;)

Discussion in 'Sager and Clevo' started by FredSRichardson, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    @Papusan @Mr. Fox - this is really a question for you guys.

    I have to ask because I am not sure - what makes BGA a bad thing?

    Have prior generations of gaming laptops generally had socketed CPUs?
     
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  2. Papusan

    Papusan BGABOOKS = That sucks!! STAHP! Dont buy FILTH...

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    Terrible bad binned processors. Forget serious overclocking and easy replacement for a faulty cpu. (Socket processors can normaly be upgraded one generation up). New motherboard due component failures throw you into a new silicon lottery. Inferior/Bad binned processors means all too high voltage with higher clockspeed than stock. Low entry BGA can't be overclocked at all(see 6700BGA). Often inferior cooling due thin flimsy laptop design(BGA is designed for CrApple thin laptop design). CPU Heatsink is often shared with gpu. Normally difficult maintenance inside. +++ TRASH!!
     
  3. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    @Papusan - do (prior to skylake) Dell Latitudes typically have a socketed processor? I just assumed they were all surface mount but I never checked.

    If there is a valid niche for surface mount processors I'm guessing it would be the Ultrabook. Looking at it from one end it is the logical progression going from smart phone -> tablet -> something with a big screen and keyboard. I can see not being surprised at all these being surface mount components given the design constraints.

    Perhaps I have grown to accustom to this with my smartphones and Ultrabook that I didn't really flinch at a BGA gaming laptop.
     
  4. Blacky

    Blacky Notebook Prophet

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    With a BGA laptop, at most you win what? 5 mm in height ? I don't even want to phantom the losses producers are incurring. For every faulty GPU or motherboard Intel sells a CPU.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  5. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    I can't help but think this is the new norm. The industry already has to deal with expensive surface mount components for cellphones and tablets (and ultrabooks). Maybe this has lead to some innovations on the chip production side? Or maybe they just have to do more testing...
     
  6. Papusan

    Papusan BGABOOKS = That sucks!! STAHP! Dont buy FILTH...

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    Only 3 Clevo and one MSI barbones have proper socket hardware today. The damn Ultrabook design is all over the place now:no:
    upload_2016-11-30_2-23-24.png

    The new norm is thinner, thinner and thinner... You can't fit proper socket hardware in CrApple designed laptops. They haven't the cooling you need for high performance processors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
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  7. TBoneSan

    TBoneSan Laptop Fiend

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    That's it. Give them half a chance and next gen they'd sooner move to passive cooling and have a throttling GPU with 3 generations old performance just to save a further 2mm.

    I can actually appreciate the form of a fanless thin design.. but let's leave that on a business machines' that's sole purpose is displaying PowerPoint presentations.

    I've noticed its mainly college kiddies and gamerboys who care about battery life and thinness on a gaming machine, Usually placing aesthetics before anything else. Gotta impress the ladies with them headshots at lunch time lol.. good luck with that :p
     
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  8. Papusan

    Papusan BGABOOKS = That sucks!! STAHP! Dont buy FILTH...

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    I get very sad when people defends trash as in the link http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...e-pascal-edition.796958/page-23#post-10399453 An unlocked BGA is not like other unlocked LGA processors. They are supplied pre binned as spam. Aka Intel pushes out so many of this junk, that they have no control on the quality.
    @Mr. Fox We are the .0001%:confused: →→→ http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...e-pascal-edition.796958/page-25#post-10399538
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
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  9. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Notebook Groundsloth

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    @Papusan @TBoneSan - I was wondering why there was so much throttling built into my BGA i7-6820HK, but now I think I understand. In the best case scenario, this will reduce the number or complaints from naive owners with poor thermal paste jobs since the CPU will still function. In the worst case scenario this compensates for poor quality control by trying to reduce stress on the chip and keep it running.

    But I can't completely dismiss the Ultrabook - they have their place. I carried one around for 3 years and really liked it. I wanted to upgrade to a better gaming laptop and honestly the best compromise I could find was the P650RS-G and that just about stresses the mobility angle for me. Still, maybe they could have put a socketed CPU in there.

    I would be interested to see what the production statistics are like on the BGA processors. I can't help but think they must have improved over prior socketed generations since the whole industry has shifted towards thin surface mount solutions.
     
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  10. Stooj

    Stooj Notebook Evangelist

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    To be fair, very little of that has anything to do with BGA itself being a bad technology. Almost all of the "problems" are design or implementation related. You don't see anybody kicking up a stink about GPUs or DRAM or PCH/Northbridge/Southbridge being BGA since...forever...

    Here's some of my other thoughts in no particular order:
    • A $700 GPU blows up and replacing that is fine, yet replacing a motherboard and CPU for a similar cost, which arguably does more, is suddenly a huge problem?
      A GPU has a core, ram, I/O, power delivery, some accessory chips. Hell, it's practically an entire computer in complexity (and in cost for some high end stuff), so why isn't the GPU core replaceable?
      People seem too attached to the thought that replacing a motherboard is "too much". In a laptop it's almost trivial.

    • How many people have actually replaced the CPU in their laptops compared to those that don't? Even when we had socketed MQ processors (and a large range to choose from) I think I read about maybe 2-3 people purposely upgrading the CPU. These were usually people who bought an i5 skew and upgraded to an i7. Often it wasn't even financially practical, it was due to lack of performance, feature-set or outright failure.

    • Same point, how many people actually replace their MXM GPU? How many people have their MXM GPU die on them and just end up buying a new laptop because it presents better value for money anyway?

    • Every GPU ever made has been surface-mount to a PCB in some fashion. Almost all modern GPUs are implemented BGA for the last 10 years or so. On a purely technical level BGA is a superior implementation method.

    • People REALLY underestimate just how much cheaper it is to manufacture a board with integrated components. I can get some entire refurbished i7-6700HQ+GTX960M motherboards for anywhere between $500-700 AUD. Just a desktop i7-6700 costs $400 AUD where I am. Just imagine how much cheaper it is in the manufacturing stage.

    • BGA CPUs can be replaced assuming you have the correct equipment. But it's usually too cost-prohibitive. Not because of the cost of replacing just the CPU, but because you usually can buy an entire bloody motherboard+CPU and replace it for less total cost.

    • CPUs could theoretically be put back onto their own board (like an MXM GPU) and therefore remain swappable/replaceable. The old Pentium 2/3 slot based processors were exactly this. Kind of pointless though as it introduces a lot more cost.

    • Hardware is very cheap to manufacture. As a general rule, if something costs more than 50% of it's value to repair, then most people would replace it. Replacing a CPU often costs significantly in time/labour (even if it's your own).

    • Really high CPU performance in a notebook is almost pointless from a practical perspective. Any truly high performance CPU tasks are done more effectively in highly threaded CPUs and if it gets REALLY big, offloaded to server/s where noise/power are not an issue. There's a reason Nvidia's Data Center market revenue grew by 193%.

    • Lastly, fact is, it all comes down to money. Hardware is cheap, time and people are expensive. Replacing an entire board requires minimal human intervention or debugging.

    I've got both a P650RP BGA machine and a P750DM. The P750DM is currently sitting in pieces, it's CPU and SSDs powering my new desktop PC. The 10 series GPUs just made the P750DM utterly redundant since it's non-upgradeable really.
     
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