Asus ROG Strix GL702ZC / G702ZC / S7ZC with Ryzen 7 1700 8-core CPU and a Radeon RX580 GPU

Discussion in 'ASUS Gaming Notebook Forum' started by sicily428, May 30, 2017.

  1. hogues

    hogues Newbie

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    Thanks for your input everyone!

    Personally I do think this laptop looks like a great bit of kit, although in terms of meeting the requirements of what the guys need against what they want, I think I'm just going to have to put my foot down and have them look at other alternatives. Funnily enough the machines they've been using thus far with no issues are all of a sudden "too slow" following one of the team members getting a £2k desktop a few weeks back... funny that! ;)

    Basically the software that they need to run is old and poorly written and seems to process everything very much in a brute force sense - which is what makes having 8 cores/16 threads so appealing, and of course this laptop is an absolute monster when it comes to its multi-core capabilities. Unfortunately said software is compatible with Win7 ONLY (with the developers confirming there is no support planned for any other OS), which provides a bit of a headache.

    I've also been informed they require the use of peripheral devices connecting via USB 2.0 only, as apparently when connected via more recent iterations these devices don't work at all (which doesn't entirely make sense to me...). This of course is another point against this laptop in my very specific instance.

    I think the request for a fleet of these machines has very much been a case of, "that looks cool, lets get it!", rather than a realistic assessment of whether or not its fit for purpose.

    I do love this suggestion and the thought of attempting to get this working does sound like a lot of fun! Bundled in with the other considerations I think this would be a case of trying to force a square in round hole as it were. Additionally, the potential users aren't particularly... tech savvy (?), in an attempt to phrase that in the nicest way possible, thus supporting them with the use of these machines in such a way suddenly becomes a lot more difficult.

    I'm going to push back for desktop alternatives and suggest connecting remotely when out of the office. Should be able to save a lot of hassle (both in initial implementation and subsequent support) and money this way.

    Thanks again for all your input everyone! The most annoying thing to come of all this is having done a lot of looking in to the GL702ZC I want one for my own personal use now... :p
     
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  2. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Notebook Guru

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    How does this laptop go for I/O speed?

    The only faster interface it has is a USB 3.1 Gen 2 type C port.

    Given this and the fact it only has 1 x M2 SSD slot + the Sata III 2.5" bay it would seem to get the fastest I/O possible on this laptop that it would make sense to put the OS on a 2.5" SSD (Samsung 860?) in the 2.5" bay and put in a Samsung 960 PCIe or similar into that M2 SSD slot. That way the Samsung 960 is bottle necked by the 3.1 Gen 2 port ( so wringing every drop of I/O performance possible from that 3.1 Gen 2 - nothing left on the table there at all)

    Since there is only 1 x M2 slot there is of course no way to do a Raid 0 to get speed from slower SATA III SSD's so it would seem the only way to get up the to max speed of the USB 3.1 Gen 2 port is to use a very fast NVMe PCIe SSD in that single M2 slot.

    Does this analysis sound about right ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  3. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Notebook Guru

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    What is the fastest RAM out there for this laptop ? How much difference will it make over the 2400MHz RAM that comes with it (maxed out to 32GB)

    Edit - from what I can tell it looks like these RIPJAWS are about it.....is there anything faster then this that this laptop will take ?


    G.Skill
    G.SKILL 32GB (2 x 16G) Ripjaws Series DDR4 PC4-21300 2666MHz 260-Pin Laptop Memory Model F4-2666C18D-32GRS
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  4. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Except that unless you have a specific use that can benefit from the NVME speed spending extra is a waste of $. Your benchmarks will bring you warm fuzzies, but in day to day use you won't see any benefit.

    Now, if you have a task that is IO bound, and you run it for hours a time, and the delta in job run is enough time in wall time to save you time in your work flow, or allows you to run more jobs per day, you'll never payback to yourself the delta in cost(s).

    The NVME's controllers at their higher speed run much hotter, and throttle sooner, so unless you have a good airflow / cooling around the M.2 drive, you are better off with the cooler running M.2 SATA drive, which also draws less power at idle and under load.

    There are now 2TB M.2 SATA SSD's, which were only available in NVME previously, so your storage density options are the same now.

    Here are some sample prices for 2TB and 1TB M.2 SATA and NVME SSD's, you pay 2x for the NVME!

    SAMSUNG 860 EVO Series M.2 2280 2 TB SATA III 3D NAND Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) MZ-N6E2T0BW - $649
    https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147681

    Samsung 2TB 860 EVO SATA III M.2 Internal SSD - $649
    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1382505-REG/samsung_mz_n6e2t0bw_860_evo_2tb_internal.html

    Samsung 960 PRO Series - 2TB PCIe NVMe - M.2 Internal SSD (MZ-V6P2T0BW)
    Price: $1,249.00

    https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-960-PRO-Internal-MZ-V6P2T0BW/dp/B01LY3Y9PH

    Crucial MX300 1TB 3D NAND SATA M.2 (2280) Internal SSD - CT1050MX300SSD4 - $289
    https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-MX300-NAND-SATA-Internal/dp/B01L80DH1Y

    Samsung 860 EVO 1TB M.2 SATA Internal SSD (MZ-N6E1T0BW) - $329
    https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-860-SATA-Internal-MZ-N6E1T0BW/dp/B07822Z77M/

    Samsung 960 PRO Series - 1TB PCIe NVMe - M.2 Internal SSD (MZ-V6P1T0BW) - $615
    https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-960-PRO-Internal-MZ-V6P1T0BW/dp/B01LYRCIPG/

    So even with just 1 M.2 slot, you can save $100's by going with SATA vs NVME.

    Here a few videos showing the end user perceptive difference between SATA and NVME, Optane, and what is found is that for most users doing everyday operations, running games, applications, booting up, etc, the difference in real use shows little perceptable benefit.

    HDD Vs. SSD Vs. NVMe M.2 - Does a NVMe Drive Help Boot Times?

    boot test nvme vs sata SSD vs sata HDD.jpg
    Funny how the NVMe actually boots 1 second slower than the SATA SSD :)
    sata vs nvme BF1 Game Launch Test.jpg
    NVME PCIe SSD vs. SATA SSD for Gaming, Tested!
    Testing results start about 4:00

    Here are new reviews of Intel Optane SSD, showing again that for normal usage you won't notice the difference in user perceptible performance.
    Intel Optane 900p : Our Initial thoughts and Testing


    The fastest SSD for gaming, and one big problem..
    Results start around 3:50

    Optane vs NVME vs SATA game load times.jpg
    Only specialized long running jobs will show benefit's that a user can benefit from.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  5. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Notebook Guru

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    My application is moving very large video files onto the laptop for editing and encoding then getting the material back off the laptop and back onto the NAS.

    The only fast interface this laptop has is USB 3.1 Gen 2 - and thats not even that fast compared to TB3. I would prefer the TB3 but of course its not available with Ryzen. So seems real world speeds off a fast PCIe SSD out to a fast SSD Raid via 3.1 Gen 2 is about 800MB/s. TB3 would do double that - alas its just not happening in this laptop.

    So regardless of my reasons for wanting to do it, it looks to me like the OS on a Sata III SSD in the 2.5" bay and a PCIe SSD in the M2 slot is the way to move the HUGE files (30-40+ GB per file) off and on this laptop as fast as possible.

    Does anyone see a reason why this would not *technically* not work the way I have outlined ?


    P.S..i might add here, what I am saying is I want to saturate the 3.1 Gen 2 connection which is real world in the 700 - 800 MBps range - how am i going to do that with a sata III SSD when there is only 1 of them? The only device I know of that will give sustained SEQUENTIAL Read/Write at or above that figure is an NMVe PCIe SSD. Luckily this laptop can take **1** of these. So that **1** PCIe SSD had better be fast if its going to saturate that 3.1 Gen 2 connection.

    I cant see any other way to fully saturate that Gen 2 connection. If there is another way I am all ears. So I am open to any ideas/suggestions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  6. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    That would only work if you had another NVME SSD equivalent speed storage internally in the USB 3.1 device you are transferring from.

    Usually "NAS"'s aren't that fast, they have internal HDD's, and even summing up the throughput of several 100MB/sec SATA III HDD's, you'd need 8+ of them to get that NVME speed. 5 of them for 500MB/sec to match a SATA III device.

    If you populated the NAS with SATA III SSD's, then you would need several of them in the RAID to match the 800MB/sec sustained.

    Often in real world tests you'll get less than the theoretical throughput...

    Then again, 550MB/sec vs 800MB/sec is a speed up of 45%, so it depends on how many GB you are transferring and how many times a day you do that, to see if the 2x price difference is worth it.

    Also, tests show sustained throughput on NVME M.2 SSD's show the slowing down after a short time, to avoid overheating and throttling. So you'd need to find out what that time limit is on the NVME M.2 SSD you are looking at, to see if your transfer would complete before that slow down started.

    Then you'd need to figure out how long it needs to cool down to the same starting idle temperature before starting the next transfer.

    Or, just find out the thermal slow down throughput, and calculate based on that lower throughput as it's the sustained throughput.

    If you put together all of that, to confirm your calculations, we'd love to hear how it all works out. :)
     
  7. Caretaker01

    Caretaker01 Notebook Geek

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    Why does raid speeds count?
    Unless you need to transfer high amounts of data daily from one place to another, let's say you are a youtuber, in real world use my Samsung evo 960 never reached 20% of it's full capacity, after I installed it I ran some tests and I can confirm that the SSD M2 drive reached the read write speeds claimed by Samsung. However testing side by side with my old laptop running a Corsair sata II SSD every software that I use opens about as fast. And lumion 8 rendering software has 15 GB installed so it should blaze in opening it, in fact so far developer's don't even take advantage of SATA II SSD speeds of 150 read write

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
     
  8. Deks

    Deks Notebook Prophet

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    2 x 8GB 3000 MhZ:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/G-SKILL-Ri...18315217&sr=8-2&keywords=so-dimm+ddr4+3000Mhz

    2x 16GB 3000 MhZ:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Ve...8315477&sr=8-22&keywords=so-dimm+ddr4+3000Mhz

    Prices however are atrocious.
    Ebay seems to be selling the 2x16GB version for £400 (which is lowest thus far in UK).
     
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  9. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Yup, that's the key to why the NVME although 2x-5x+ faster than SATA III, the rest of the operations in the software take time too. :)

    The first time I ran into this was when optimizing SATA II drivers for a Nubus card that they thought wasn't performing correctly, as the end result - transfering files, was only a few percent faster. They verified the disk IO was indeed 2x-4x faster than before, but it wasn't showing up in real world programs.

    The problem was the filesystem code, it was optimized for a much slower storage throughput, and when faster throughput was available it didn't know what to do with it.

    I ended up optimizing the OS / FS code years later and it really made a big difference.

    We don't usually have that opportunity without access to source code, so we are stuck with finding applications that do optimize for higher speed IO, and respond with better wall time reductions than unoptimized code.

    That's when I discovered that you need to do optimization from bare IO through OS to application before you can benefit from big gains in benchmarkable IO speed improvements. :)

    SATA III works fine for M.2 vs NVME for most applications, most owners will benefit more from the 2x storage for the same $ if they shop wisely.
     
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  10. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Notebook Guru

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    Yes, but you have to get the files ONTO the laptop for any processing that you are doing with those files...then when finished you need to get those files OFF the laptop and back to some other storage medium.

    What you are saying is that programs themselves may not deal with the high speeds. That is not what I am trying to do...... I am trying to move very very large files from outboard NAS storage to onboard laptop storage for further processing by programs on the laptop.

    So how to saturate that USB 3.1 Gen 2 connection on this particular laptop is what I am asking and as I have said several times is it looks like the only way to do it with such sparse I/O on this laptop (only 1 x M2 and only 1 x 2.5" bay) is to use a device in the M2 slot that can give huge I/O in its own right. How else would one generate a read or write speed of 700-800MB/s in or out of this laptop?

    Anyways, i just wanted to run it past the crowd here to see if my thoughts on this are headed in the right direction on this. Looks like I will just have to give it a go and see.
     
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