AMD's Ryzen CPUs (Ryzen/TR/Epyc) & Vega/Polaris/Navi GPUs

Discussion in 'Hardware Components and Aftermarket Upgrades' started by Rage Set, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    See, I've gotten more bs pushback here and at OCN than on AMD's own forum post announcing the 3950X and TRX40 chips. Kind of amazing.

    But we are in the majority, it seems. Many are upset at one of two issues: 1) no drop in compatibility, or 2) no offering on the HEDT at the 16-core price point (meaning around $900 and willing to buy a new board). Both are similar complaints, but are distinct. And I feel the consumers upset on either count may have believed either solution would have been roughly acceptable.

    Just kind of a shock that the AMD forum is the only place I had no one trying to defend AMD and had an actual conversation on my write up I posted above with one of their longtime forum participants that answer questions about AMD issues, specifically that AM4 doesn't have enough lanes. The handle was HardcoreGames TM.

    We also mentioned what changes we'd like to see in the future, including closer to 40 PCIe lanes on mainstream platform.

    Which, it almost makes me wonder if we will see a new split off soon for segmentation. If they do, I'd recommend the following:

    Entry: current mainstream offerings for motherboards like 16-24 PCIe, stick mITX mATX, APUs, etc., and start tailoring that to more specialized type builds for SFF, etc.

    Mainstream: this is 40-48PCIe lanes like Intel's current HEDT lineup. Has more robust MB features, including VRM. Able to do gaming enthusiast, AV enthusiast work, etc.

    HEDT: this is where the 64-96 PCIe lane systems live. It would offer more workstation and business centric optimizations, but still have enough some enthusiasts may explore the option. This should potentially have overclocking and non-overclocking variants.

    Server: what we all know and love. High lane count, memory channel count, etc.

    Just a thought since AMD wants to try to force people onto the mainstream platform. If this is what they are doing moving forward, then they should plan for changing the mainstream platform in 2021 AND start telling MB MFRS their plans to have robust designs ready for them at decent pricing by that time.
     
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  2. TANWare

    TANWare Just This Side of Senile, I think. Super Moderator

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    No, the original x399 layout has a ton of RSVD spots to use for the higher core count chips. If they were so wired when GRND and/or power were on some of the reserved pins the higher core counts could have been reserved to TRX40 and not operate/boot on x399. I only can see a basic layout so no way for me to know the total involvement of a proper remap as I am sure it is involved but it seems could have been done. Again ship has sailed!

    I myself can't see the 16 core TR but can understand some wanting it. TBH if they all are willing to accept a new board and 16 core, that MAY be something AMD can do, again x399 ship has sailed, way too much involvement to bring it back.

    Edit; I will be honest, and I know it means little to nothing but, if that is a cure to say at least 50% or more of the complaints and AMD showed that initiative personally I would be happy to see them catering again to enthusiasts. If only a few would be helped it is not worth the sales or effort.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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  3. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Thanks for the idea to check out OCN and AMD, and I enjoyed reading both threads.
    I thought your comments were right on and I enjoyed reading your posts there.

    I thought this post summed up nicely:

    "I think TR3 will have limited sales for a number of reasons...

    1. High cost of entry into platform ($1400 for chip + mobo cost)
    2. No upgrade path for X399 owners
    3. Availability of 12 and 16 core parts that are a relative bargain on AM4

    Maybe by design... those highly binned 7nm chiplets are in high demand for 3900X /3950X and Epyc, with TSMC supply limited.

    They may have a lot of TR1/2 stock they need to clear out, based on the serious price cuts I'm seeing. I could see them later releasing a 16 core (3955X?) to fill the gap between $750 and $1400."
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-...l-missed-opportunity-amd-20.html#post28200266

    The follow up question is the one I want AMD to flesh out with details:

    "Still trying to understand what AMD means for long term support on sTRX4"
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-...l-missed-opportunity-amd-20.html#post28200274

    sTRX4 being HEDT I'm not so sure AMD can predict the market exactly enough to put out a fixed date that wouldn't need to change - one way or the other, either keep sTRX4 longer due to no need for change, or shorter to accommodate new technology from competition moving to DDR5 / PCIE 5.0 = sTRX5? ;)

    As for sTRX8? TRX80 will the higher core count CPU's flourish on that platform but be compatible on sTRX4 TRX40 as well, or be incompatible? The TRX40 motherboards have crazy power capabilities, way beyond what the 32c/64t 3970x can use, so there must be higher core count CPU's on the way - as Robert Hallock told us, "we did the xTRX4 upgrade for the future scalability" - higher core count CPUs I assume.

    I enjoyed this post, here's a real trooper that's dealing with things practically - he needs the PCI lanes, doesn't care about the cores, but doesn't want to spend $1400 for the entry level ThreadRipper 3 CPU, and he's gonna push ahead with a positive attitude and smileys. :)

    "I'm buying a current gen, since I fit into a weird segment where I don't need the core count but want the PCIE lanes. I'll be happy at 16 cores with a 2950X, since those are on sale. [​IMG] ... So instead I'll settle for 16 cores and be happy. With my luck, AMD will *****-can the entire platform 2 weeks after my build is done, just like they did with the Radeon VII. [​IMG]
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-...l-missed-opportunity-amd-20.html#post28200302

    Now near the end of the thread the current posts are much more accepting - people have dealt with the surprise, worked out plans to move forward, and this one makes the most sense to me if there just isn't enough reason to buy right now:

    "Think I'll hold out for 3990X and TRX80 [​IMG]"
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-...l-missed-opportunity-amd-20.html#post28200330

    It's a long way down that road to get there, but unless you need a computer for a project right now, why not wait till you do have a need and buy the best available within the time scope of your future project?

    There is a gap between 16c AM4 and 24c TRX40, but either you need the PCIE lanes or you don't, it's not that big of a jump of $650 to get the 3960x CPU over the 3950x, and again if you really have work that needs more PCI lanes then you should easily be able to pay the freight on a TRX40 board over a nice AM4 board of the same otherwise spec.

    Then you are ready for 3990x(?) or sell the TRX40 and get TRX80.

    It's gonna cost real money to stay in AMD HEDT over the normal enthusiast budget, but that is to be expected - at least that is what I would expect.

    So this post summed it up best:

    "If this thread doesn't scream first world problems I really don't know what would.
    "This thing I want to buy for my hobby isn't priced the way I'd like"."
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-...l-missed-opportunity-amd-19.html#post28198754

    Don't worry, be happy, that's it really. Be happy with what you have and can get because that's all there is, face the reality of the now.

    If you have time read the whole OCN thread, there is even a guy on there that claims to "...while typing on my AMD Threadripper 3960X", it's all entertaining stuff. :)
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-...il-missed-opportunity-amd-2.html#post28188822

    "op just buy an intel chip, ask the one of admin to close or delete this thread. This is just pure nonsense!"
    https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-...il-missed-opportunity-amd-3.html#post28189132
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  4. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Great idea for the video that won, and what a great Ryzen 7 3800x ROG build.

    We Built His Dream Family Gaming Rig - ROG Rig Reboot 2019
    Linus Tech Tips
    Published on Nov 17, 2019
    Thanks to the ASUS Republic of Gamers for sponsoring this video!
    ROG Rig Reboot 2019 is back, and our first winner is here! Family is life, but gaming is forever, wouldn't you agree?


    #ROGRigReboot19 r/DiWHY
    ThePuddler
    Published on Sep 28, 2019
    Helping my brother to try and win a PC with #ROGRigReboot19 contest, so hopefully we can play Borderland 3 when it comes out on Steam.
    Used my Pixel 3a to shoot the video.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  5. rlk

    rlk Notebook Evangelist

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    That would create its own problems -- your 3960X isn't beefy enough, so you want to go to a 3980X? Oops, now you need a new motherboard. I think it's a much more sound expectation that all of the Ryzen 2 TR chips will work on all compatible motherboards.

    I think the case for a 16 core TR is a lot more compelling, personally. The idea that someone would need lots of I/O with a relatively modest (!) compute need certainly is realistic. Given how much better Zen2 IPC is than Zen/Zen+, that's only going to be that much more acute. That almost certainly is something AMD could do, probably quite quickly, if the demand is there. And that is a big gap between $750 and $1400. Pricing it around $900 or $1000 would cover that gap nicely, and go after the 10980XE. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if AMD is working on it or even has it in the wings.

    Two (three, really -- EPYC) different processors in different lines with the same core count, targeted at different purposes, isn't confusing; my problem is with different processors in the same line being incompatible.
     
  6. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    So you are coming around on my assessment/write-up above on the product gap in their lineup? Good to hear.
     
  7. rlk

    rlk Notebook Evangelist

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    I don't disagree on the gap in the lineup when I take a closer look at the pricing. My real issue is with the compatibility thing.
     
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  8. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    My assessment had nothing to do with compatibility and included the assumption it would be on TRX40. I think you may find that long post as something you agree with, generally.
     
  9. rlk

    rlk Notebook Evangelist

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    There have been so many posts I've lost track; I assume you're referring to the one where you broke recommendations down by price bracket?

    If you're looking at the current landscape and need to make a decision now I think it basically makes sense. Things obviously move so fast that what makes sense today might not make sense a week or so from now. If you really need gen4 PCIe, of course, things are a bit different, but there are always corner cases and there aren't a lot of things that "really need gen4 PCIe right now". But people who need that likely know why, and might well be looking at EPYC/Xeon Scalable anyway.

    I think there has been confusion about the 16-core SKUs. As I said, I think a 16-core Threadripper (let's call it 3955X just to tag it) would make sense. The AM4 has taken a big jump in CPU performance and cores without increasing PCIe lanes, and that does leave people looking for large I/O capacity in a bind. I'm a Linux user myself, so 2970WX/2990WX would be possibilities if I were looking in that space, but not everything I do is embarrassingly parallel and I'm aware not everyone runs Linux.

    The Anandtech review actually leaves me concerned about the high end of the Ryzen 3 generation; if the 3950X is running out of memory bandwidth the (hypothetical) 4950X would only be worse in that regard. That might be one of those very specialized chips you use only if you know your workload is heavily threaded without being memory or I/O limited (the 3950X is arguably that already). Or maybe you'll really need an X670 (again, hypothetical name just for tagging) to get the most out of it, so you'll be able to use the old motherboard but it won't be a great idea.
     
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  10. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    I ventured the 3955X name also awhile back (couple weeks). Gotta say, I agree generally with what you said.

    I also spent time discussing a bit on memory bandwidth needing to be discussed per core or per thread. I also mentioned people needed to find whether it effected their specific workloads before buying the 3950X.

    As to memory bandwidth per core, this is where the TRX80 and workstation 80 monicker comes in. Those are more than likely 8 memory channel designs. And that makes me think that the TRX40 boards this year are for up to a certain core count, while 8-channel memory on HEDT is coming. That is solution 1.

    Solution 2 is to put HBM2E/3/lo (lo is the cheap hbm they designed and has around 320GBps whereas HBM2E is closer to 500GBps on two stacks and HBM3 is closer to 1TBps). Once they go to integrating the I/O into an active interposer, that real estate is freed up. Imagine a 2x8GB stacks where the I/O die is on mainstream with the core dies on the other side. No more IF at all. That would solve bandwidth issues as 8-channel server memory is around the HBM-lo or lower. Even with DDR5 doubling bandwidth, you are still not going to get much above the levels of HBM2 dual stacks. And if more than 16GB is needed, you have DDR5 populated to feed the HBM. It really completely resolves the issue.

    But it is HBM or increasing the number of channels on each platform moving forward that is needed, even after DDR5. So hopefully they realize that. They also would need to convince ram MFRS to produce a lot more HBM for their product lines to bring costs down for it.

    But imagine not doing two DIMMs per channel, but putting quad channel on mainstream with the AM4 replacement. You don't sacrifice space, do not drastically increase manufacturing costs, and easily jump up memory bandwidth.

    But that is my thoughts on where I want them to go.
     
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