AMD's Ryzen CPUs (Ryzen/TR/Epyc) & Vega/Polaris/Navi GPUs

Discussion in 'Hardware Components and Aftermarket Upgrades' started by Rage Set, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. Deks

    Deks Notebook Prophet

    Reputations:
    1,267
    Messages:
    5,193
    Likes Received:
    2,068
    Trophy Points:
    331
    Yes, but these aren't 5xxx series gpu's we're talking about... so, not really comparable.
    While its accurate that in a lot of titles, the 2080 may be faster, the differences won't usually be huge, and the predominant reason for this performance difference lies in the fact that NV paid devs to optimize games for NV proprietary features and hardware in general (which makes it impossible for AMD to fully optimize for those games and close the gap to levels that would render the issue moot - problem is that AMD optimized games may perform better on AMD hardware in turn, but NV will be able to easily optimize for those titles as AMD uses open-source features for games that does the same thing as NV with less strain on the hardware - sans of course real time raytracing).

    Apart from that, also bear in mind that AMD usually overvolts their GPU's from factory, which makes them heavily susceptible to further optimizations... such as dropping the power consumption and temperatures, and of course potential for overclocking while you are undervolted at the same time (which at 7nm might potentially turn out a lot better than on GLOFO node).
     
    hmscott likes this.
  2. Vasudev

    Vasudev Notebook Nobel Laureate

    Reputations:
    11,801
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    8,746
    Trophy Points:
    931
    I don't want to talk about driver optimisation because nvidia cripples older gen once new GPUs are released.
    Even Nvidia overvolts their GPU from factory as well you can see 95% of the people undervolting using MSI AB for lesser temps and high OC potential along with steady state Frame times.
     
  3. D2 Ultima

    D2 Ultima Livestreaming Master

    Reputations:
    4,335
    Messages:
    11,803
    Likes Received:
    9,750
    Trophy Points:
    931
    I'm too tired for this

    1 - They do not cripple older GPUs
    2 - You cannot "undervolt" and also "gain high OC potential". Overclocking is "undervolting" lower clockspeeds in the first place. You can tune the curve to some extent after overclocking, but it cannot really be called an undervolt. On power-limited mobile GPUs, undervolting holds more usefulness, but is unnecessary on the desktop cards.
    3 - Even considering what I said on point 2, the curve changes its own position fairly often depending on games and temps and whatever the hell else random crap happens, so it's not like it's even something you could say is set in stone.
     
    yrekabakery likes this.
  4. Vasudev

    Vasudev Notebook Nobel Laureate

    Reputations:
    11,801
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    8,746
    Trophy Points:
    931
    I'm using Maxwell 2 980M. On Pascal cards I didn't see Crippling drivers rather than their nvidia classical Swiss cheese.
    I can't undervolt on the fly on Maxwell 2.
    They are slowly throttling Maxwell and older on generic drivers and I'm using j95 driver mods now.
     
  5. D2 Ultima

    D2 Ultima Livestreaming Master

    Reputations:
    4,335
    Messages:
    11,803
    Likes Received:
    9,750
    Trophy Points:
    931
    1 - My 780Ms never slowed down right up until they died, quite a bit after the launch of Pascal
    2 - Maxwell undervolting is impossible because of there being a voltage range observed... without forcing voltage to a constant with vBIOS mods, the voltage range can differ by over 100mV for a single frequency range. This is to say at 1200MHz you could go from 0.98v to 1.1v up and down like a yoyo. Undervolting without first locking voltage (and causing the card to draw excess amounts of power on GM204 and under) would simply cause your cards to crash repeatedly. In fact there's old OBS posts where people were crashing outright from demanding games like the Witcher 3 while trying to livestream... my fix was to tell them to overvolt by 25mV (allowed even on mobile cards) and every single user reported stability after doing so... because the problematic "low" voltage issue was rectified, at the cost of average voltage (and heat, and power draw) rising.
    3 - Nvidia is not throttling older cards. Any performance drops you witness are because newer games are using tech older cards cannot calculate as efficiently. Turing does MUCH better at DX12/Vulkan and Async compute than Pascal. AMD does much better at async compute than Pascal. Does this mean if developers start tossing in async compute tech into games 2 months from now that Pascal, or Maxwell (which is far worse than Pascal at async compute) is being "crippled"? No, it means that tech is advancing and they don't age as well. There is a difference.

    Nvidia makes cards for "right now". AMD makes cards for "five years from now". AMD cards "age better" because when new tech is introduced years later, they are capable of handling it. Go back and test games of the times... the old cards will perform exactly like the new cards. 780Ti vs 980 vs 1060 in Metro Last Light? 780Ti wins. 780Ti vs 980 vs 1060 in Doom 2016 in Vulkan? 1060 wins. Does it mean the 780Ti was nerfed? No it does not. It is however why I tell people to ignore older Nvidia cards the second newer ones launch unless they get an exceptional deal. 1080Ti for $400? Ok grab it. 1080Ti and 2080 cost roughly the same price? I only see the 2080 as a choice in the matter. It WILL last longer.

    Unless you have a lot of proof where new drivers cut your fps heavily in a multitude of older titles in a wide range of newer drivers, then you're simply spreading misinformation based on your own lack of understanding of the subject.
     
    yrekabakery likes this.
  6. Vasudev

    Vasudev Notebook Nobel Laureate

    Reputations:
    11,801
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    8,746
    Trophy Points:
    931
    My card uses too much voltage at default about 1.075V. Even a minor overvolt 25mV causes it to spike to 80-85C(Ambient temps averaging at 30-38C)
    I agree with you on Point 3 and I know that now every feature of games work on older GPUs. Dx12 is a nightmare on Maxwell and older 99% of the times games crashes it just rage quits no error log nothing to pinpoint what caused the game to crash so given a choice of Dx11/12 on Maxwell I'd choose DX11.
    Lot of proof? A sample space <10 who plays older games just for fun manages to find that FPS are low somehow even on medium/high settings without any eye candies. That kind of small sample space of users is pretty much insignificant to a majority of users. So, I keep a copy of old drivers when I get these kind of issues so, I use DDU and revert to older versions. I update drivers only when new W10 OS is released so that I've certified driver for W10 XX version.
     
  7. yrekabakery

    yrekabakery Notebook Virtuoso

    Reputations:
    1,470
    Messages:
    3,438
    Likes Received:
    3,688
    Trophy Points:
    331
    This is not true at all.

    Even ancient Kepler, the oldest architecture supported by current drivers, is still benefiting from driver optimizations.

    When I compared drivers 3 years apart on Kepler GT 650M SLI, there is a small but measurable and consistent performance increase with the newer driver. Metro: Last Light Redux saw the biggest jump, about 10%.

    Same hardware, same clocks, same Windows install, same in-game settings, and the games have not received any patches after 2014, so the difference is solely due to driver optimizations.

    368.95 (2016) vs. 417.71 (2019)

    Metro 2033 Redux
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Metro: Last Light Redux
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Sleeping Dogs: Definitive Edition
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    tilleroftheearth likes this.
  8. Vasudev

    Vasudev Notebook Nobel Laureate

    Reputations:
    11,801
    Messages:
    11,234
    Likes Received:
    8,746
    Trophy Points:
    931
    Very good.
     
  9. Deks

    Deks Notebook Prophet

    Reputations:
    1,267
    Messages:
    5,193
    Likes Received:
    2,068
    Trophy Points:
    331
    AMD's Radeon VII Is a Solid Gaming Card, But That's Just the Beginning
    http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2019/02/am...lid-gaming-card-but-thats-just-the-beginning/

    And this is why I think the $700 is justified (would it be better if the price was lower? Of course, but that's obviously not how AMD sees it).
    It utterly smashes the RTX lineup in compute performance, while still giving decent gaming performance at LESS than 300W (not undervolted)... which NV GPU does the same at the same price range?
    None.

    Compute (and by extension, professional software use) is by FAR more relevant/widespread than real time raytracing considering its used in exactly one game (and even then, raytracing provides minimal visual impact that most people don't even notice for a massive performance loss).

    On the power consumption side, even though its rated at 300W, Radeon VII seems to pull less than that... it's actually similar to 2080 in power draw on stock... undervolted it pulls even less.
    This is actually a pretty big deal considering how powerful its compute capabilities are in comparison (and how power intensive they are by default).

    Mind you, the Radeon VII is not without its flaws... it still has lower ROP's and texture units which sometimes show in games, and its more of a professional GPU than a gaming one, but given that AMD effectively salvaged it from MI50, uses newest commercial technologies, etc...

    I mean, am I the only one who's looking at Radeon VII from both gaming and pro angles and not just the gaming aspects that many seem to?
     
    Vasudev and hmscott like this.
  10. D2 Ultima

    D2 Ultima Livestreaming Master

    Reputations:
    4,335
    Messages:
    11,803
    Likes Received:
    9,750
    Trophy Points:
    931
    That's your ASIC's issue.

    And even though I just explained the voltage issue, you're trying to tell me it's wrong. It's not wrong. You either don't get it or are denying that it exists.

    Also, where is your proof? You have a sample space but I'm not seeing comparisons. Where's tests on older drivers vs newer ones where the newer ones have notable drops across a fairly wide range of drivers, consistently lower in all the games? I.E. not a once-off issue?
     
Loading...

Share This Page