AMD's Ryzen CPUs (Ryzen/TR/Epyc) & Vega/Polaris GPUs

Discussion in 'Hardware Components and Aftermarket Upgrades' started by Rage Set, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. bennyg

    bennyg Notebook Virtuoso

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    Some of the low end "600" series (rebadged 500 series) are Polaris on glofo 14nm.

    Maybe that, and continuing production of Zen 2 I/O dies will be enough to fulfil the agreement, maybe AMD are banking on another WSA renegotiation with lower numbers

    They may just choose to pay the penalties if their financials keep improving, saddling future products with old processes that may one day be fighting Intel's 10nm would be crazy
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  2. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    You've reiterated the state of mind of someone that insists on reducing the temperatures below operational / design requirements by increasing the fan speed past their comfort zone of noise. As I said low GPU temps aren't required by AMD / TSMC for safe operation, so owners complaining about the blower noise of their AMD GPU are running their blower fan's at a higher speeds than is required for safe operation.

    Even Gamers Nexus can't see it, it's how most of us have been operating for a long time. Bring the temps down at any cost. Re-paste laptop CPU's / GPU's no matter what to bring down temps even if the stock temps are fine, buy expensive and dangerous (LM) pastes and expensive thermal pads to fight for that last degree of temp - and run fans as high as possible even if the fan speed makes our computers way too noisy.

    For the 7nm generation TSMC and AMD state that running the silicon at high temps isn't a problem. The TechYes chart shows that AMD designed the 5700XT to run stock auto @ 82c with 54% fans which has a noise figure of 51dB and the AIB MSI 5700XT stock auto @ 66c with 78% dual fans to get 52dB, neither GPU noise output should be noticeable inside of a case pointing away from you.

    The difference at the same effective fan noise output is allowing the AMD GPU to run 16c hotter than the AIB MSI GPU. Knowing that the 82c temp is running well below the safe maximum, everyone with a blower fan can actually run their AMD GPU at the same noise output as the AIB GPU's simply by running the automatic fan curve.

    It's a new thing to get used to - running the temps higher than we normally strive to reduce - but based on the TSMC / AMD design parameters, we can run the blower "just as quiet" as the AIB dual / triple fan setup's, but with higher temps that are within the safe operating range.

    AMD designed the blower to run at auto with 51dB and let the temps run higher but safe to use day to day.
    5700 XT Mech OC twin fan smaller form factor GPU temps and noise.jpg
    Is the Red Devil the only model you are interested in? What about the others? Too expensive or some other reason? What is it about the Red Devil you like above the other AIB options? Would you care to elaborate?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  3. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    So your reasoning why AMD won't innovate is because of their contract with Global Foundries for 12nm / 14nm production requirements?

    I don't think after all of AMD's hard work to innovate that AMD is going to let Global Foundries hold them back from progressing forward. AMD won't let Global Foundries stop them from releasing 7nm / 6nm / 5nm products as early as possible.
    Exactly, AMD will adjust their mix appropriately and pay any gaps required to allow them to produce the latest and best processes for their products. Even if Intel never gets competitive again I don't expect AMD to stop pushing forward with new processes and innovating - as Intel isn't the only competitor on the horizon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  4. electrosoft

    electrosoft Tick Tock Clarice....

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    That isn't what I'm saying or implying. It actually is the exact opposite. I want the fans to run quieter/lower even at the cost of higher temps. I am not a low temp zealot. I am an acceptable fan noise zealot. My desktop is plenty loud with the numerous case fans and Noctua D15 ramping up with all cores @ 5ghz previously with a Sapphire reference Vega 64 that even running full tilt wasn't as bad as the 5700xt. But the reference cooler on the 5700XT is a non starter. It stood out from everything in my case and room and announced its presence immediately :p

    The heat/temps are a problem in only that they force the fans on the AMD blower to run at a level that produces food processor grade noise levels (hyperbole intended) that can not be adjusted down without the loss of performance / throttling due to temps.

    I've had all types of reference cards in my systems over the years, and this 5700xt was the loudest by far. It is only the second piece of electronics I had to sell almost immediately because the noise level was on another level. The other being the Alienware m17 Core 2 duo w/ 3870's. It lasted *1* week in my house.

    Again, one more time for clarity, the temps directly weren't the reason I had to let it go. It was the resulting, unmanageable, fan noise that couldn't be ramped down enough even with a UV to prevent throttling. If it ran ~3 below Tjunc MAX 24/7 but was relatively quiet and didn't throttle, I would have been happy and it would be in my case right now. Really like the 5700xt, but the reference cooler gets a big ole F from me.


    I like the aesthetics of the red devil and triple fan design along with the results from the review, but I'm always open to other models. I won't go Sapphire again due to poor warranty support. I don't like the look of the Asrock. Gigabyte is an option.

    But then again, if a model presents itself that doesn't sound like a VTOL, good performance (OC a plus) and fits in well with my current dB / harmonics envelope, I'm all ears (ba bump bump....TISH).
     
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  5. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Well, if the 51dB out of the blower is too loud for you then the MSI AIB model putting out 52dB is also going to be too loud?

    Did you run on auto fan when it was so noisy or were you running it on 100% or high rpm settings? Or maybe you had a faulty unit?

    You see where I am going with this right? I'm quoting measured noise outputs from a review testing both the AMD and AIB models running auto fan curves that also show performance differences.

    Please let us know what you find from running the same settings - auto fan - on the AIB or if you can lower the RPM / noise or need to raise it.

    I realize that review is only one sample input on the noise differences, but it is what I would expect to see.

    It's too bad you couldn't have kept the AMD GPU to compare side by side with the new AIB model.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  6. electrosoft

    electrosoft Tick Tock Clarice....

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    Two schools of thought here:

    A> I thought this too, which is why I was thinking of picking up a XFX reference 5700 from best buy as a comparison. If I found a test model to be much quieter, I would probably pick up an anniversary edition as I
    really like the blue lighting of the reference card. If the XFX was just as nails on the chalkboard, that would settle that.

    B> It isn't always the dB but a combination of dB and pitch/harmonics which can produce an unacceptable sound. For example, many are fine with Clevo P870TM/KM/DM2/DM3's, but to be
    they sound like jet engines even at lower dB settings, the sound of the fans are piercing to me.

    Either way, with Powercolor informing me my warranty would be voided if I opened it up that was that.

    Searching online, I'm not the only one who thinks the 5700xt reference blower is loud (some used much more colorful language lol) , but it comes down to the individual too.

    Some thought the Vega 64 reference blower was ridiculously loud, but I found it acceptable even under full load benching (plus your case lit up a pretty, pretty red :D)

    The AMD reference 5700xt, in the end was a non starter, but I accept I'm one individual who met a auditory intolerance when trying to use it and was blocked from fixing the problem
    without voiding my warranty. As always, YMMV.
     
  7. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Here's a review of the Sapphire 5700XT AIB GPU with temp and fan noise charts:

    Sapphire RX 5700 XT Pulse Review - COOL and QUIET Navi!
    bit-tech
    Published on Aug 12, 2019
    Head over to the website for more benchmarks, graphs, and analysis!

    Custom Navi designs have finally arrived, and the first through our benchmarks is the Sapphire RX 5700 XT Pulse.

    Cards tested in this review:

    Sapphire Radeon RX 5700 XT Pulse

    AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT
    AMD Radeon RX 5700

    Nvidia GeForce RTX 2070 Super Founders Edition
    Gigabyte GeForce RTX 2060 Super Gaming OC
    Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060 Super Founders Edition

    Games benchmarked in this review:
    Assassin's Creed Odyssey (DX11)
    Far Cry New Dawn (DX11)
    Metro Exodus (DX12)
    Shadow of the Tomb Raider (DX12)
    Tom Clancy's The Division 2 (DX12)
    Total War: Three Kingdoms (DX11)

    Thank you to Sapphire for supplying the review sample.

    Our reviews are fully independent; no third party has ANY say over ANY of the content you see here.


    Timmy Joe had problems with the Arctic Accelero Extreme III on the AMD 5700XT AE, he thinks the memory wasn't getting good enough cooling coverage, and gave up and went back to the stock blower - with the washer mod - while he waited for his water block to arrive (see above).

    Comments in his video from people that also used the AAE III on their AMD 5700 said they didn't have problems, some used thermal pad / tape to connect the VRAM to the heatsink.

    Perhaps a design update for previous gen coolers is needed to fit the new 5700 series GPU's?

    DO NOT Aftermarket Cooler your Radeon 5700xt!
    Timmy Joe PC Tech
    Published on Aug 8, 2019
    The Radeon 5700xt's blower isn't good but it turns out the arctic Accelero extreme iii made things worse. Do not change your blower cooler before watching this video! Thanks to Arctic for sending the Accelero out, even if it didn't work for this card :(


    Will L 1 week ago
    "Do not stop. Do no give up Timmy Joe. You, YES YOU TIMMY JOE one of the few TechTubers that still care about overclocking like it's still 1998, I love you for that. So please, keep it going!"

    James Hammond 1 week ago
    "Timmy, love your videos but I had the complete opposite experience with the Accelero III on my 5700xt. I purchased my card on launch day and couldn't get it to survive even stock clocks with the blower.

    Here is my post on LTT forums explaining my issues then covering the Accelero installation with pictures + tips https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/1086542-accelero-xtreme-iii-and-iv-5700xt-tips/ My combo is an R5 3600x and 5700xt. You can check out my 3dmark scores all under user name CartridgeCrusadingDesh but my best Timespy run was: Total Score - 9284 Graphics - 9699 CPU - 7476"

    armando1is1great 1 week ago
    "i had the same problem on an rx 480 with the accelero. what helped me was thermal tape or whatever its called, thermal pad thats sticky on both sides. that way i was able to tape half the small heatsink onto the memory where it wouldnt interfere with the plate. gave beautiful temps and never any issues. thermal arhesive is definitely a pain inthe ass to work with"

    paul taylor 1 week ago
    "dude, you got the wrong cooler. Morphius Vega or Prolimatech mk-26... Yes, they both work. Ive tried and both hit 2100+"

    Lots more helpful feedback from owners in the comments...

    ---> Sorry, my posts were glued together again:

    Fair enough, thanks for sharing your 1st hand experience, it's very helpful.

    Hopefully AMD will take the negative feedback seriously this time and move away from the blower cooler like Nvidia has already done.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  8. Deks

    Deks Notebook Prophet

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    I didn't say AMD would stop innovating.
    I said that AMD would probably not be releasing the I/O die on anything other than GLOFO 14/12nm until their order contracts with GLOFO expire in 2021 (in this regard, I think AMD would be wise to at least use 12nm for I/O die as it allows greater density and translates to smaller use of space).
    The other parts of new CPU's will probably still be released on newer/smaller dies if AMD decides to release them on those newer dies (which will not be dictated by GLOFO, but rather the yields of the nodes).
    There has been some 'talk' that AMD may stay on 7nm EUV for a while though.

    Now, we don't know if this will happen and/or if AMD will decide to march onward to smaller dies with Zen 4 (they probably will if the yields are as good as on 7nm)... but we do know right now that AMD will be going forward with 7nm EUV for Zen 3 in 2020 (but the I/O die will likely be on 14 or 12nm from GLOFO).
    Zen 4 looks like it will be coming in 2021... which will probably still have a 14/12nm I/O die from GLOFO (though this may depend on WHEN in 2021 the contracts are about to expire... so Zen 4 could be using a 7nm EUV I/O).
    https://www.techpowerup.com/258099/...2021-zen-3-completes-design-phase-out-in-2020

    "The "Zen 4" architecture is being designed for a 2021 market debut, and will come out at a time when the 7 nm process will have matured and attained high enough volumes at TSMC for AMD to either build bigger dies (more cores per chiplet), or leverage the even more advanced 6 nm EUV node. The maturity and volumes of these sub-10 nm nodes could change the economics of the MCM approach AMD is undertaking for its EPYC processors."


    AMD Ryzen 3000 "Matisse" I/O Controller Die 12nm, Not 14nm

    https://www.techpowerup.com/256511/amd-ryzen-3000-matisse-i-o-controller-die-12nm-not-14nm

    So, it seems the I/O was indeed made on 12nm
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2019
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  9. ajc9988

    ajc9988 Death by a thousand paper cuts

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    Lots of problems with these assumptions. 1) the wafer supply agreement only applies to building on any node that GF can provide.

    2) 6nm is a port from 7nm and uses EUV on 5 layers, whereas 7nm EUV took a full redesign and is EUV on 4 layers. N7P is a refined N7 without EUV. 5nm is a redesign either way for the process. But, earliest 3nm gets used is 2022, with 2023 being more likely.

    AMD suggested waiting for 3nm because 5nm didn't bring much benefit. But with 5nm volume in 2020 and N5P volume with an interposer being available in 2021, along with a 45% area reduction over 7nm, 27% over 7nm+ EUV, you can pack more into the chip quicker or drastically reduce the size of the chiplets. Considering Intel's 7nm is equivalent density and is a threat of being executed during 2021-22, AMD would need to adopt it and go wider for IPC gains with 5nm Zen 4. That is more likely the long lived node, if not 3nm, as 3nm/2nm is pushing the very limits of current theory, will require GAA, etc.

    So 6nm makes no sense with 7nm+ EUV already requiring the redesign. If you have to do that work again, you wasn't something more tangible than from 7nm+ to 6nm, which means 5nm, likely the N5P which is a refinement of the N5 node, said to have higher frequencies and better efficiency than 5nm, but same design, meaning they wouldn't have to change anything.

    N7P was just announced, which was too late to consider for Zen 3 because they had already been designing for 7nm+ EUV. Same with 6nm, which would have been easier to port from 7nm. Meanwhile, knowing N5P now, this far out, and likely having been using the 5nm dev kit out for awhile, it is an easy move to then use that refinement for volume in 2021, a year after 5nm goes into volume production.

    That matches Intel's density right away for Intel 7nm, beats their 10nm refinements, and will last them for a couple years until they go to 3nm.

    With AMD adopting the process node around a year after volume production starts, that means AMD would be on 5nm until 2023 or 2024. Waiting for 3nm is clearly not an option if staying with TSMC. So it may be better moving to the smaller node early.

    3) why the hell do they need to increase the core count per chiplet. 8-16 cores per chiplet was the sweet spot for their 64-core study in 2014-15 using an interposer. Sure, maybe increase the CCX to include all 8 cores on the die, but adding any more cores to it increases size and risks of critical defects, thereby reducing yields. Instead, adopting an interposer to reduce latency, keeping the core count, and increasing number of core dies makes WAY more sense, unless you have something to show me otherwise. They went chiplets to get away from large core count dies. Why reverse that now? It makes no sense!

    I'm sure there are other points I didn't address, but this is a good start.
     
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  10. hmscott

    hmscott Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    More Boost clock investigation on x570 motherboards:

    AMD 3rd Gen Ryzen Boost Clock Investigation
    Hardware Unboxed
    Published on Aug 21, 2019

    Ryzen 7 3800x stock boost clock across a bunch of x570 motherboards.jpg

    Has anyone tried MorePowerTool for tuning their Radeon Navi's?

    Igor has his own Youtube channel with details on tuning, reviews of the AIB 5700's, and it's German:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/wallossek

    Igor has reviews and articles in English as well:
    https://www.igorslab.media/en/category/editorsdesk/reviews/
    https://www.igorslab.media/en/home/

    Making the Radeon RX 5700 and RX 5700 XT more energy-efficient and significantly quieter with the MorePowerTool | Tutorial
    Igor Wallossek, 19. August 2019 06:00
    https://www.igorslab.media/en/makin...ntly-quieter-with-the-morepowertool-tutorial/

    -------------------------------------

    Perhaps the 3800x is worth it's premium as it bins out according to SL a bit better in top frequency terms compared to the 3700x. Too bad the 3900x isn't quite so lucky, I think I'd hold off and see how the 3950x does in single core top frequency bins from SL to see if the %'s increase:

    "Ryzen 3000 Binning Statistics
    Silicon Lottery recently updated its statistics page to show numbers from their Ryzen 3000 binning process. These numbers can provide some meaningful insight for those looking to play the silicon lottery, and see what percentage of chips can hit the highest frequencies and where they fall on the volt/frequency curve. As expected, Ryzen 3000 binning is a bit underwhelming, which isn’t altogether bad, depending on your perspective.

    The highest, stable frequency achieved for the Ryzen 9 3900X was 4.20 GHz at 1.250V, and only the top 6% of chips were able to hit that mark. Stepping down to the Ryzen 7 models, the top 20% of Ryzen 7 3800 X models managed a 4.30 GHz overclock at 1.300V, while the top 21% of Ryzen 7 3700X chips hit 4.15 GHz at 1.262V."

    From:

    HW News - Lots of Insecure BIOS & Drivers, Ryzen 3000 Binning Stats
    By Eric Hamilton Published August 18, 2019 at 10:43 pm
    https://www.gamersnexus.net/news-pc...nsecure-bios-drivers-ryzen-3000-binning#Ryzen

    Also it seems that complex ideas filtered through marketing (or braggadocios CEO's) can mislead - whether on purpose or through inadvertent enthusiasm. It's happened with RTX, and now AMD boost clocks. I'm still hoping that the 4.75ghz boost is reached on the 3950x to substantiate that claim.

    And, Windows 10 / Microsoft sucks, again with vulnerabilties...

    HW News - 40 Driver Vulnerabilities Found, Ryzen 3000 Binning Stats
    Gamers Nexus
    Published on Aug 18, 2019
    In this hardware news recap, we talk about vulnerabilities discovered in BIOS and drivers, Ryzen 3000 binning stats, and RTX updates.
    Topics include the following:
    - Insecure drivers found from every major vendor
    - Assetto Corsa no longer confirming RTX support
    - AMD updates product pages
    - Ryzen 3000 binning stats posted by Silicon Lottery
    - Rumors about Threadripper 3000
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
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