All you need to know about quality of MSI hardware

Discussion in 'Desktop Hardware' started by Felix_Argyle, Aug 23, 2019.

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  1. heretofore

    heretofore Notebook Consultant

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    Your initial reply strongly suggests that Asus VRM's do not overheat and thermals pads are generally unnecessary on Asus cards.
    You are repeating the advertisement claims of Asus without any data to back it up.
    Show me the data which proves that Asus VRM's do not overheat and are superior to VRM's that other manufacturers use.

     
  2. Convel

    Convel Notebook Deity

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    My initial reply implies that Super Alloy Power II power components are more efficient than bargain bin components, so when used on a weak SKU GTX 1660 Ti card, they may not get as hot as you think. In no way did I suggest that Super Alloy Power II trumps top offerings from other manufactures, or that Asus' power design is generally better than others. The simple fact is that Super Alloy Power II is a nice upgrade to find on an MSRP card, and the Bit-Tech review you referred to states so as well:
    In retrospect, I meant to bring up another possibility, not to dismiss the possibility that the card's power circuitry is indeed overheating, because we lack data. I haven't found a review yet which discusses VRM throttling or includes infrared images of this card. I haven't found anything for similar GTX 960 or 1060 SKUs either, but these budget-oriented, small cards aren't all that popular, I think. I know full and well cooling is usually needed, and that could be the case for this 120W TDP card too. It could be this card is showing minor throttling because it lacks cooling directed at the power circuitry specifically. I don't know and I was trying to head into this conversation open-minded.
    I included that the numbers are "official", as in from Asus, as to indicate these are not independently measured numbers. I still included them to get the point across that more efficient VRMs can make a big difference to temperature. It's the same principle as more efficient PSUs needing less cooling. If I had found actual temperature measurements of the card's VRMs, I would have included those instead. I'm able to find as little data to back up my claim that the VRMs may not be overheating as you're able to find data backing up that they are overheating. The reason I replied to your original post in the first place was not to defend Asus, but to point out that even though the VRMs are not covered with a thermal pad, they may not run adversely hot. They could be, but it's not certain.

    I also added how simply adding a thermal pad could slightly impair the cooler's airflow, to suggest that there could be a reason they didn't include one on this particular card. Yes, that means the cooler has a poor design, so no, that was not me praising Asus. If that actually is Asus' defense, it's still a cheap move since they didn't redesign their cooler to accommodate VRM cooling, but making a bespoke cooler for a low-margin, new card is a costlier endeavour than adding full-size thermal pads, I'd assume.
    I have not suggested Asus is a superior manufacturer, nor have I suggested that no Asus card ever has overheating VRMs. The Strix Vega 64 is one example of an Asus card with uncomfortably hot VRMs, even though there actually is VRM cooling in place; it's just insufficient, with one VRM not properly covered. That's a 295W TDP card though, so not exactly in the same ballpark in terms of cooling needs. Neither of us have any data to once and for all settle whether the VRMs of the Phoenix do or don't overheat, but I sure wish we did, because I don't have an actual interest in the card itself or Asus' reputation. I found my alternative conjecture for the Phoenix not having a VRM thermal pad a valid addition to the conversation for the sake of discussing thermals only.
     
  3. heretofore

    heretofore Notebook Consultant

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    This reviewer says the Asus Phoenix starts throttling at 83C on the gpu.
    youtu.be/mGTVhoOT8uI?t=118

    How many graphics cards do you know that thermal throttle at around 85C on the gpu?
    I never heard of a gpu which thermal throttles at 85C.

    Later in that video, during the furmark test, the gpu is running at 89C.
    How is it possible the gpu is running at 89C if the gpu thermally throttles at 83C?
    Perhaps because the gpu is not thermally throttling? Something else is thermally throttling.
     
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  4. Convel

    Convel Notebook Deity

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    Pascal's BIOS hard limits GPU Boost 3.0 to 83°C. There's nothing in that video to suggest VRM-throttling.
    Furmark is a stress test far more intensive than gaming. As you can see from the HWiNFO64 screenshot, the GPU clock has dipped to 1,489 MHz at 89°C, which means that not only has the boost clock been dialed all the way back, but because the GPU is still running hot, the card's been throttled slightly below stock core clock as well. Furmark is simply too much for the card to maintain an 83°C or lower core temp by using boost clock as a buffer.

    On the subject of benchmarks, here's a video which shows only normal variation between the 1660 Ti XC Black and the 1660 Ti Phoenix: youtu.be/0bCt9592y-M?t=6m52s

    The video also demonstrates how sample and benchmark variation is real, which I tried to highlight since the difference between Palit and Asus in Bit-Tech's review is too small to draw a conclusion. For the sake of defending VRM-overheating as a possible culprit, it's important to mention that the above benchmarks were run on an open-air test bench. It could be that the VRMs get too hot if the ambient temperature is high or the case the card is installed in has poor airflow. But again, it would be a case of which throttling point is reached first. In such a scenario, the GPU would run hotter too.

    If it's okay with you, I'd prefer not keeping this particular conversation alive any longer since it all comes down to conjecture. We can revisit this topic if conclusive measurements appear.
     
  5. heretofore

    heretofore Notebook Consultant

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    When you can prove that bare VRM's on Asus cards do not over-heat, then I will stop arguing with you.

    Why does the Asus ROG Strix have thermal pads on the mosfets, but the Asus Phoenix does not?
    For cosmetic reasons?
    youtu.be/RonKx7zr0bg?t=490
     
  6. Convel

    Convel Notebook Deity

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    I've already clarified my stance and provided explanations, but you don't seem the least bit interested in the content of my replies. What you're doing now is rehashing your questions and accusations, and I will not engage in this conversation any further.
     
  7. Charles P. Jefferies

    Charles P. Jefferies TG Lead Moderator Super Moderator

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    Thread is now closed. It's indeed been exhausted.

    Charles
     
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