$600 Inspiron 5402 14" - A wolf in a sheep suit

Discussion in 'Dell' started by Not-meee, Dec 11, 2020.

  1. saturnotaku

    saturnotaku Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    There are also people that simply like the experience of owning a higher-end product. I could have gotten more hardware for less money by going with a more conventional gaming laptop over an XPS. Every one I've tried over the last 12-18 months has had a compromise (or several) that I wasn't ultimately willing to live with, be it the keyboard, trackpad, screen, fan noise/thermals, software, or battery life. I have no issues with any of these things on the XPS 17. Sure, the maximum 130W charging capacity is something of a downside, but I've yet to experience battery drain in my workloads.
     
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  2. Not-meee

    Not-meee Notebook Geek

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    Gamer or not, you have raised questions, which I have followed along and came back with my own findings, as I got around to them. If I had a group of gamers asking this or that, I would be side tracked, and doing what ever for their curiosity. Let alone get a lot of back and fourth deviation. I do not do well with groups, and manage along at my own pace. I am fairly well done here... so if gamers and fanboys want to have it out, they can take over.... like I really doubt much will be said any further.

    I guess you misunderstood me as much as I misunderstood you. I never intended to compare high end with mid range, both on CPU or GPU. Was stating with mid range in all its worth, newer CPU options are better when given a choice, so there is no need to go dedicated especially on mid range laptops, unless they offer a more serious gaming option, as an alternative to Iris xe.

    As for what GPU you order, really does not make much difference. It's medium level hardware, and in price structure. To the level of capabilites, medium grade, does not mean low to mid range performance. I have seen, higher priced laptops with all the bells and whistles, just come down to a few better components. Though even with higher end laptops, a cheaper drive may have been installed in a base model which would make it seem to perform no better than a mid range laptop. I may have allowed for comparisons loosely, but I never intended to make you think I blanketed high end being the same as mid range. Gaming never was on the table, I just made comments at times to allow for casual gaming experiences, as if I wanted to try a a game or two, that is not so intensive on gpu capabilities. To me it's insane to even think it would keep up against a Razer or XPS on on higher level gaming, equally. Though it does not keep the laptop from doing very well against some dedicated GPUs offered on mid level laptops.

    I can't compare as to how much difference on plus minus scale, but just saying time and time again, reviews on the 11th gen Intel hardware are less to be desired. Yet nobody is surprised either with my hardware findings or with the lack of proper information in regards to specs.
     
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  3. Not-meee

    Not-meee Notebook Geek

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    Here is another update... I found Windows sucks at allowing for full performance mode on laptops. I don't know how the schema fits as such but I found through trial and error, the Dell battery management is stupid as ... you fill in the blank.

    Removed the POS, and added a tweak to allow CPU speed overide in performance settings. I tested in increments from 4000MHz up to 4600Mhz and will be keeping it there. I know my CPU is only capable of 4200MHz with turbo boost. Well low and behold I broke through the barrier.

    Major improvement that reflects full potential of the Iris Xe, i5 setup. Beats the i7, but that's because nobody has unlocked the power on their new system.

    Here is the latest numbers on top, and the standard numberd below.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. custom90gt

    custom90gt Doc Mod Super Moderator

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    I'd love to see some screen shots of your CPU exceeding the max turbo frequency as defined by Intel.
     
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  5. Not-meee

    Not-meee Notebook Geek

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    Never said I exceeded Intel's cpu limitations. I am forcing windows not to limit or throttle down maximum frequency. I am not sure if Windows is defaulting limits with hardware, on laptops, or if Dell battery monitor utility has hosed the windows power management features. None the less from the data seen from reviews and sites, it looks to be a windows thing, or bios. I have set my bios to be AC powered, as with the Dell battery management utility before I started bench marking. Now the utility is removed, though I had to enable the old windows power management feature to limit or unrestrict maximum frequency of the CPU when under AC power.

    Basically by pushing beyond the CPU limit, your forcing windows not to throttle at the limit. The CPU is in control of its throttling. I hope you see the reason why I pushed beyond the 4.2Ghz limit in power managment,

    Though one wee thing puzzles me, there are two or more benchmarks that show lower than original. I assume Defender or windows update had a process. Unlike most who setup for gaming, I do not disable features I rely on more than games.

    Also I may need to check game mode, even though I don't plan on games, I leave it on. I will try out another set of benchmarks without game mode enabled. Also I think intel graphics management has game mode or something like it in the settings.

    I may have to do 4 benchmark run throughs, fully disabled game mode, windows xbox only game mode, intel only game mode, and back to both game modes enabled. All with my CPU frequency override on power managment. It may be enlightening, to see what is going on in Windows and all with various settings.

    Now I am only down to just using non intel drivers from Dell, and Dell's phone connection manager application, outside of Intel managment and drivers.
     
  6. custom90gt

    custom90gt Doc Mod Super Moderator

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    I'm confused, you say
    "I hope you see the reason why I pushed beyond the 4.2Ghz limit in power managment"

    Do you mean you're setting it to ask for more than 4.2GHz or are you saying it's running at higher than 4.2GHz.

    Sorry I thought windows uses a percentage and not a gigahertz.
     
  7. Not-meee

    Not-meee Notebook Geek

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    Ah, I see now... I never thought about the battery on the task bar. I am old school. Control panel, system, power, advanced power management. CPU Power management. The trouble is winows now makes it dumbified. You must enable the bloody thing to show CPU power management. From there you can manually enter in MHZ the frequency for maximum on both the battery and AC.

    I haven't the time now to do my test runs with finding what works best on the benchmarks. Though having the Dell power manager and the CPU override on power management seems like a good to for any machine. Just don't know why limits were active under AC power. One thing I also don't like is balanced. Since when does any one want balanced power to be your only option when plugged in. Crimey!
     
  8. custom90gt

    custom90gt Doc Mod Super Moderator

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    Curious if you've used ThrottleStop before? It's one of the best applications for any Intel laptop in my opinion.
     
  9. Not-meee

    Not-meee Notebook Geek

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    Oh, I try not to use any tools other than what is needed. If I can manage on my own, I won't bother. Just never had to mess with power managment before. Use to get what I wanted from it with no issues, until I moved away from Windows 7, I did mention windows 10 is as new to me as the laptop.

    Not sure if some of the issues with noticing performance fluctuate though my testing as I go methods. I think some of it was on Dell's updates. There was a lot of them since early December.

    As long as I am able to control the system's power management in the bios, in setting it and leaving it. Dell's managment app being removed, should help in keeping that part stable. Just windows needed a wee kick in the arse.

    I just never thought about it, as it's been hidden. I did notice through performance counters I was hitting proper frequencies, so I never bothered to go deeper. Don't ask me why I bothered to go into Windows power managment to do what I did, it was one of them old school ways of managing battery when unplugged, when I noticed the lack of CPU control. So once I enabled it, I started tinkering, mostly because it defaults to 000000 on both battery and powered. Which really confused me, once I saw it. So I plugged in some starters and did a test run. Which I saw a minor increase with 4 ghz to start, so I figured even though the system hits max frequency at the CPU, there is some shortening of the time it is allowed. Knowing turbo boost is not a constant speed, I figured windows may be holding back, not the cpu. So I push it to the 4.2 limit and tested again. Which did even better. Now with 4.6 set and no issues, I will test with gfxbench even more to see what is best on the settings. Though I find GFXBench a wee problematic. Sorta unreliable with server connex. The only reason why I use it, is to get a good idea of capabilites across the board. Other bench tests combine too much as one big result.

    Anyway... I am not really tweaking for games, just tackling troubles as I see them more clearly. I am almost positive it's Dell's management messing with the laptop, even though there was a bit of updates from MS and Dell. I still think the 3rd bios update mess with it as well, but the Dell managment also had been updated around that time.

    I am glad I found a cause of concern for all Dell users, who have not removed the Power management application. Though it requires tweaking the registry, to correct what dell has done, when it was installed.
     
  10. Not-meee

    Not-meee Notebook Geek

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    Well, I cleaned out my intel graphics settings and reinstalled the drivers. Cleared out power management, and toggled windows game mode, before running gfxbench twice, to get a base line.

    Unfortunately gfxbench servers are a bit wonky. Unable to grab data from the two tests remotely with my android tablet. I can grab old data, but nothing recent.

    I did find that Dell battery management application is nothing special. I am begining to think a bios update or hardware update from Dell is the culprit... but I will continue further. Just the laptop now is in general use, so having it go back to being a test bed, is a bit more difficult than isolating the performance issue.

    One thing I have not done is restore windows advanced power managment features that are missing.

    You can restore them by using command shell as Administrator.

    Here are the commands for each feature

    powercfg -attributes SUB_PROCESSOR 12a0ab44-fe28-4fa9-b3bd-4b64f44960a6 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_PROCESSOR 06cadf0e-64ed-448a-8927-ce7bf90eb35d -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_SLEEP 25DFA149-5DD1-4736-B5AB-E8A37B5B8187 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes 9596FB26-9850-41fd-AC3E-F7C3C00AFD4B 03680956-93BC-4294-BBA6-4E0F09BB717F -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_SLEEP A4B195F5-8225-47D8-8012-9D41369786E2 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_SLEEP d4c1d4c8-d5cc-43d3-b83e-fc51215cb04d -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_SLEEP 7bc4a2f9-d8fc-4469-b07b-33eb785aaca0 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes 2a737441-1930-4402-8d77-b2bebba308a3 d4e98f31-5ffe-4ce1-be31-1b38b384c009 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes 2a737441-1930-4402-8d77-b2bebba308a3 0853a681-27c8-4100-a2fd-82013e970683 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_VIDEO A9CEB8DA-CD46-44FB-A98B-02AF69DE4623 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_BUTTONS 5ca83367-6e45-459f-a27b-476b1d01c936 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_BUTTONS 99ff10e7-23b1-4c07-a9d1-5c3206d741b4 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_DISK dab60367-53fe-4fbc-825e-521d069d2456 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_DISK 80e3c60e-bb94-4ad8-bbe0-0d3195efc663 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_DISK 0b2d69d7-a2a1-449c-9680-f91c70521c60 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes 9596FB26-9850-41fd-AC3E-F7C3C00AFD4B 10778347-1370-4ee0-8bbd-33bdacaade49 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes 9596FB26-9850-41fd-AC3E-F7C3C00AFD4B 34C7B99F-9A6D-4b3c-8DC7-B6693B78CEF4 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes 19cbb8fa-5279-450e-9fac-8a3d5fedd0c1 12bbebe6-58d6-4636-95bb-3217ef867c1a -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes F15576E8-98B7-4186-B944-EAFA664402D9 -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_VIDEO aded5e82-b909-4619-9949-f5d71dac0bcc -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_DISK 6b013a00-f775-4d61-9036-a62f7e7a6a5b -ATTRIB_HIDE
    powercfg -attributes SUB_VIDEO f1fbfde2-a960-4165-9f88-50667911ce96 -ATTRIB_HIDE

    If your features do not populate, then you will need to adjust the registry.

    Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Power

    Set CsEnabled to 0

    You can check to see throttling is enabled, PowerThrottlingOff and change the dword to 1 to disable.

    Then reboot, and you should be able to adjust power managment indepentantly by device or within advanced power managment.

    I should have some results over the weekend. Just clearing out and rechecking wee details as I start to isolate the cause that's effecting performance. I will reset/override pci-e windows power management settings, as there seems to be a global issue with data throughput, not just cpu on power managment.
     
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