3XS Carbon Extreme (P775DM3) from Scan UK

Discussion in 'Reseller Feedback Forum' started by dm477, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. dm477

    dm477 Notebook Evangelist

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    TL;DR I am reserving judgement on recommending Scan as a Clevo reseller until this issue has been resolved.As things stand, I will advise potential buyers to look elsewhere for Clevo machines. Proceed with Caution.

    Update 31/03/17: Scan has just emailed me asking for confirmation for the refund amount. I have said yes, so hopefully it would pop in my account soon. I think it has been an educational experience for me. I'd like to give a shout out to @madeinholt. The dude is a total legend and helped me through out the process. And of course, everyone else here who offered their best advice. Many thanks to everyone.

    Update 30/03/17: I had another conversation with their manager. I have asked for a refund and they have agreed. I'd have specifics by the evening, and will update the thread accordingly.

    Update 29/03/17: So I got a phone call from Scan around 1600. I was in middle of something so I couldn't talk for long and asked them to just email me their results. I got following response,

    Please find the details below of the tests as discussed on the phone today
    We have tested 4 different 7700k CPUs
    We have also tested with 2 chassis
    Most CPUS throttle after around 6 mins on AIDA by 23%-26%
    the best results are from the original chassis with the 7700k CPU running at 4.4GHz
    The laptop has currently been on AIDA for 47 hours and it has only throttled by 8%.
    Temps are currently between 71 degrees and 84 degrees.
    Max across all cores is 97-99 degrees
    We look forward to hearing your thoughts on these figures


    I think it is a bit too cute, the lack of specifics that is. I have emailed them asking for details but I am tired of continuing with this tiresome exercise. It is futile. Not to mention, disappointing and frustrating.

    Update 28/03/17: I was assured by their manager that they would get in touch with me today. And if they could not get through my phone, they would email me.

    Well I haven't heard anything from them. Doesn't bode well for the Wednesday deadline. It is bloody frustrating.

    Update 27/03/17: I have tried calling their manager a few times now but no one answered. I have emailed him asking for a time slot (preferably today) for the call.

    Edit 2: Tried their manager's phone at his preferred time, still no response. Tried again after five minutes, same result. I have emailed the manager advising him to just email me with whatever he wanted to discuss over phone. This whole thing is quite frustrating

    Edit 3: Just had a telephone conversation with their Manager. He was polite and said that he would like to resolve the issue asap. So I said they have got two days to sort it out otherwise I will have to go the refund route.

    I want them to bring down temperatures below 90C under sustained load (with Withcer 3 and AIDA stress test (with FPU and GPU). They are going to try a few solutions, such as using a new chassis and swapping CPUs etc.

    He did say that technically machine passes all of Scan's tests, but he also acknowledged that present thermal behaviour of the system will be detrimental for its long term health. So we will see what comes of it.

    Update 24/03/17:
    I have asked for a refund.

    Update 22/03/17: I think it would be best if I just post the entire chat here. It is most enlightening, particularly the idea that 95C in Witcher 3 is not overheating. I think I'd develop high blood pressure if I were to have more conversations with Scan customer reps.

    Scan: Hi, how can I help?
    DM: Could you please ask the engineer working on my system to get back to me with an update today?
    DM: I need to know if issues with the machine can be resolved anytime soon. I cannot do without it any longer, my work is taking a hit and it has gone beyond just a nuisance.
    Scan: I'm just looking through your notes for the most recent update
    DM: Please don't give me the same recycled responses which you colleagues have already done. I made a set of suggestions to Ben. He had also informed me, day before yesterday, that he was going to discuss the issue with one of his senior engineers. I want to know what is happening on that front.
    Scan: No problem I'm just looking into it. As I understand it the system came back for overheating. We have tested the system in games and 3dmark etc. and it isn't thermal throttling however we can see it does when running a stress test in AIDA 64
    Scan: This isn't considered a fault because the laptop is designed for gaming and performs as expected in games. However we tried re-pasting it with different types of thermal paste to see if we can improve the temperatures for you however it hasn't made a difference
    Scan: So we can either return the system to you as is, as we haven't found a fault. Or we could send the chassis back to it's manufacturer to see if there's anything further they can suggest to improve temperatures
    Scan: I'll just double check the engineer was using the performance fan profile as well, there isn't a note to specifically state either way
    Scan: He's on his lunch break so I'll check that with him later today
    DM: So let me get this straight, you are telling me that you have done all that you can and you cannot resolve the issue and can either return the laptop in the same state as it is, or send it back to manufacturer?
    Scan: Not quite, I'm saying there isn't an issue. The laptop is designed for gaming and works normally in games. Even in stress tests it isn't having faults, it is just getting hot so it needs to reduce performance to compensate
    Scan: All modern computers do this when they get too hot
    DM: So you are telling me that there is not any issue with the machine other than overheating which is part and parcel of modern day computers?
    Scan: I'm saying it isn't overheating when being used for it's intended purpose
    Scan: Only in extreme synthetic tests
    DM: And you are going to decide its intended purpose, would you? What you call extreme synthetic tests best replicate my usage scenario. Anyway, indulging in verbal acrobatics is rather beside the point and I can see this conversation is not going anywhere. You have made your position quite clear on the matter. Could you please ask your manage to get in touch with me? I'd like to know if they hold the same position as you and your colleagues do with respect to synthetic tests, intended purposes, and overheating etc.
    DM: *manager
    Scan: I can confirm this is Scan's stance, not just me personally. I've checked with my manager already. When I say intended purpose I mean that we sold it as a gaming laptop so you'd expect it to work normally in games
    DM: Wonderful. Nonetheless, I'd like to interact with him/her personally. Would that be acceptable or is it too much of an inconvenience?
    Scan: No that's fine I can arrange that if you'd like. he's on a half day today so that will most likely be tomorrow now. Is that OK?
    Scan: Also would you prefer a phone call or e-mail?
    DM: Thank you. I prefer email.
    DM: Thank you James. Have a good day.
    Scan: No problem, you should hear back before 5:30pm tomorrow
    Scan: Take care

    Update 21/03/17: I was expecting a response from them by the afternoon about the state of the machine but did not get one. So I send them an email asking what is going on..and they just replied. Right off the bat they pissed me off by addressing me as 'Scott' which is as far from my name as possible. Usually I wouldn't give a flying toss about this but this whole experience has left me in a rather unpleasant mood and that just ticked me off. So here is what they sent me,

    'Hi Scott, Your system has run Witcher for a day and a half with no graphical issues, we can see the images you have sent appear to display graphical artefacts however - we will look in to this further.
    The CPU temps reached the 90s on this testing, however did not throttle performance fortunately.
    The CPU however has throttled in AIDA64, with or without FPU ticked according to the repair notes.
    We can send this laptop to a repair centre that specialise in these chassis if you wish.'


    At this point I don't really know what to do. I need the machine for my work and here they are proposing to send it back to Clevo (presumably). I bought this machine on 10/12/2016 and in three months of ownership, it has spend atleast a month in Scan's repair centre.

    Update 20/03/17 -2:
    I have been contacted by the engineer working on the laptop. First of all, his tone is more measured than that of customer service and system support guys. He seems to understand how frustrating this whole experience has been for me. Anyway, he informed me that he has not been able to bring down temperatures. He will consult one of the senior technicians tomorrow and they are going to try a new CPU.

    Update 20/03/17:
    Just contacted their online support and here is the update I got,

    "We are still working on getting the temperature down on the laptop and see if we can get an update this afternoon, temps for 4.2 where* about 90 to 95 and the CPU was not throttling"


    I don't even know how to react to that kind of BS anymore. I am just tired of arguing with these folks who say these things with a straight face.


    Update 17/03/17: I just received another email from Scan. This time the tone is more polite and I cannot detect any condescension which is always a plus. Anyway, the engineer informed me that he hasn't been able to bring down temperatures but it seems CPU is holding on to 4.2 and only drops below that in AIDA. They tell me that they don't usually use AIDA for testing their machines.

    I have replied telling them that AIDA stability test more accurately reflects my usage scenario (some intensive rendering and simulation stuff plus games like Witcher 3 running at ultra for a couple of hours). I personally think that in its present state if I were to run one of our more intensive artificial neural network analysis programs on the machine, CPU would go kaput! In any case, they seem to be implying that 4.2 is the magic figure I should be happy with and stop complaining. Interestingly enough, I have not received either an acknowledgement or an apology for their blunder (that is doing QC and stability test with multiplier set at 38)!

    Update 16/03/17 -2: I
    have just received Scan's reply and they are basically saying that I should be thankful that CPU can run at 4.2 under sustain load. Again to quote them verbatim, ' system is not overheating as such, but it's unlikely to sustain the turbo frequency at these temps, although fortunately the CPU did not throttle and maintained the 4.2GHz according to testing results.'

    I am incensed. I think I again need to calm myself down before responding lest I say something rude.

    Update 16/03/17:
    Scan got back to me with a cryptic response. They say CPU temperatures are between 90-100 degrees (!) when left with Witcher 3 running, and to quote them verbatim, 'cpu did not throttle below 4.2GHz at any point which is the base clock of the CPU'

    My question regarding turbo etc remained unanswered. I will respond to them once I have calmed down.

    Update 15/03/17 -2 : Scan just responded saying they have been running Witcher 3 all day and while temperatures do get hot they have not observed any throttling. All tests were done at 4.2 GHz.

    I have asked them to quantify 'hot' and also for someone to actually play the game instead of just starting the game and leaving it to run all day long. I mean that would stress the system alright but does not exactly replicate my usage scenario where I actually play the bloody thing and see my temperatures (and core clocks) rise up and eventually throttle.

    Update 15/03/17: Received a response from Scan in the morning. They told me that laptop indeed gets hot while running Witcher 3 and they are attempting to get it under control. They would update me again today, by 1700.

    I have emailed them back describing how problem is not limited to just Witcher 3 but anything that puts CPU and GPU under constant load, even at stock. I also mentioned how thermal throttling becomes even a bigger issue (obviously) with overclocking. I want temperatures to be reasonable under a moderate overclock, otherwise what is the point of buying an unlocked CPU?

    Anyway I am waiting for them to get back to me with their response.

    Update 14/03/17:
    I contacted Scan to find out the status of 'repairs' and was told that they would get back to me by the evening.

    So this all began in the first week of December, 2016. Well that sounded a bit more like a novel opening than I intended it to be...anyway I ordered my P775DM3 from Scan in first week of December, and it arrived on 10/12 and I was a happy camper. I spent next month in Berlin and P775DM3 helped me to carry on the rendering and simulation work. That is something which my MacBook Air really struggles with, so I was really happy to have acquired a machine that could serve me well. Mind you, cpu was running at 4.4 with -100mv and temperatures were all dandy.

    I started noticing backlight bleed on my machine in early January and I contacted Scan about it. They took the matter (or rather photographs) with the Clevo and Clevo told them they don't think it is severe enough for them to do anything. Scan was very kind and offered to swap the panel as a goodwill gesture. I very much appreciated the offer and sent the machine back to them in last week of January. So far so good. They ordered a new panel, and also upgraded the CPU from Sky Lake i7 to Kaby Lake i7. I know it isn't much of a performance boost but you know the itch to have best one can get and all that. Anyway, my machine was showing awfully good temperatures for a kabylake P775. Another user here at the forums had ordered the same config from Scan and had really struggled to keep the temperatures under 90C even under light load. He ended up returning the system for a refund in the end.

    Anyway I received my system in the third week of February and couldn't really use it for a week or so as I was busy with teaching. I started running benchmarks etc around 24/02 and that is when I noticed the temperatures to be not only mighty fine but it seemed like I have gotten a really nice chip. That is when I noticed (or rather one forum user did in one of the AIDA screen shots I sent him) that my CPU multiplier was set at 38! Scan had effectively done all their benchmarking and quality control with multiplier set at 38 and with the default BIOS offset of -100mV. No wonder temperatures were bloody brilliant.

    I set the multiplier back to default using XTU and ran some benchmarks and some games (primarily Witcher 3), with CPU running at stock and the -100mV offset. Result? Throttling galore! There was severe throttling after about an hour of gameplay in Witcher 3, and 3 minutes of AIDA stress tests. Mind you this was with 17C ambient temperature in winter and CM U3 Notepal cooler fans running at full throttle(!) I can only imagine how the machine would behave in summer when ambient temperature climbs up a bit.

    At this point, I was quite outraged. I contacted Scan, with delidding as one option to bring back temperatures under control. Scan asked me to send the machine back. After much display of (almost) criminal incompetence on part of DPD, I could manage to sent the machine back on Thursday, and now it is being worked on.

    Scan has been nice to me with changing the panel for free. Also, when I first ordered the machine, they did finish the build and shipped it to me on a Saturday, so that I could take it with me to Berlin. I do not wish to be overly critical but it is quite perplexing how they let the machine get through quality control without establishing that multipliers were set at default! DPD, their preferred carrier, has further soured my mood with their incompetent collection procedure. I love the machine and performance on offer but if they cannot sort out the throttling issues at stock and moderate overclock, I would be most disappointed. One buys unlocked CPUs to overclock and fiddle around with other settings to extract best possible performance and throttling is certainly something that is not part of that schema.

    I will keep this thread updated with Scan's response and proposed solutions for throttling and high temperature.[/I][/B][/I][/I][/B][/I]
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  2. aziraphaleUK

    aziraphaleUK Notebook Consultant

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    Having current on going dealings with Scan with my
    3XS Cyclone SLI G-Sync (P870DM2G). It went back to Scan 17/2/17 with major thermal issues, they changed out the processor, repasted and did a bios upgrade. Was promised it would be back for Saturday 25/2/17. Email received 24/2/17 saying the testing had over run and wouldn't be sent out till monday. Ok not overly happy but they did let me know.

    Tuesday 28/2/17 it came, that evening fired it up and run AIDA stress test for an hour, cpu in high 80's and not the mid to high 90's and beyond. So Im a happier bunny.

    And so the machine sat there untouched (work and life got in the way) till Thursday 9/3/17, I thought I'll restore my backup of the drive (well you dont know what they could have installed).

    Backup installed and rebooted back to my original Windows and much to my horror a deep red bloom in middle left hand side of the screen (bare in mind this is with the wallpaper sent as black which the way I always run my systems). Change the wallpaper for anything other than black or something very dark you don't see this red bloom.

    So somewhere along the line the screen had got damaged. My heart sank, thinking I know what they are going to say "It was like that when it got here". However emailed Scan with photos.

    Much to my surprise, the engineer and quality control had said it did not have this bloom when it had arrived or when it had left them and DPD may have damaged it during shipping, great news for me. Scan have agreed to replace the screen or chassis which ever is quicker. So a happy bunny again.

    They picked it up today 13/2/17, so I wait to see what happens now.


    So far my dealing with Scan have been fair, most emails answered within a few hours, did contact me when machine was delayed. Machine returned on day they said it would be.

    Only down side, they can't see to get their heads around the fact I have moved and changed phone numbers though I have included it on every email I have sent.
     
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  3. dm477

    dm477 Notebook Evangelist

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    Well I am glad to hear that you have had a good experience with them.

    I have had a more of a mixed bag experience. Even my 6700K needed an offset of -125mV to prevent overheating. I just wrote it off because almost all laptops these days have really poor thermal design or thermal paste application. But I think carrying out testing procedure and quality control on a machine with CPU multiplier set at 38, whereas default is 42, and then passing it off as a great performer, well that is just unacceptable. I am sure they did not do it on purpose, but at that kind of price point, one isn't very charitable towards honest mistakes.

    Talking of customer support, engineers working on the machine are really good because they understand your concerns and are much more responsive. Though I must say one of the customer service reps (not the engineers) told me something to the effect of, (and I can imagine him saying it in a really condescending tone)

    'You cannot expect your AIDA (CPU + GPU) temperatures to be under 90 C, even our desktop systems reach 90C+ under AIDA (CPU + GPU) loads. '

    I again ignored the statement as I didn't wish to argue with him. I was just happy as long as system didn't throttle and temperatures stayed under 90C. Mind you, I know another user here on the forum, who had to return his machine because of the same overheating issue.

    Hopefully you will get your machine back soon.
     
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  4. Phoenix

    Phoenix Super Tweaker

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    The 6700K I sold to @Codenamefa runs @ 4.6 GHz ion all cores with 0 undervolt with max temps of 85C under an AIDA64 extreme stress test. 0 Throttling as well. It's factory delidded by Silicon Lottery though
     
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  5. aziraphaleUK

    aziraphaleUK Notebook Consultant

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    Have to agree the engineers are pretty good and much like yourself the customer services reps tend to leave a bit to be desired, was told much the same with my thermal issue by CS.

    And as I pointed out to them I was hitting 90-100c on cpu only tasks (encoding video and running Maya where the video cards do very little 95% of the time).

    Running TS and undervolting 100ma would keep this system in the low 80's.

    Its a shame Clevo messed up the bios's on P6, P7, P8 machines as they all appear to be overvolted by default and on the P8 you can only apply + offset as - option is broken, so you can't even set a - offset in the bios.

    That said I'm pretty sure I will go ahead with deliding (now that my Rockit88 delid tool has arrived) and I'll add a shim as well.

    When I come to replace this machine in a couple of years I'm going to make sure I get it from a Prema partner, least Prema's Bios work.

    Will keep posting with updates
     
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  6. dm477

    dm477 Notebook Evangelist

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    @Phoenix as it turned out, my 6700K runs fine as well (in a desktop pc of a friend who bought it off me). Scan had not done a good job of applying paste. I believe you suggested the x method of application in the P775DM3 thread, and it was after that plus a substantial voltage offset, that temperatures came under control.

    @aziraphaleUK latest bios, 1.06.xx has -100mV offset applied by default. When I buy next time, it is definitely from Obsidian (or XMG). John (@John@OBSIDIAN-PC) especially has been a complete legend in supporting the community here and releasing that wonderful utility of his. Obsidian machines come with substantially more capable bios pre-installed, and if I remember correctly, they are not a Prema partner, but they will honour warranty if you can secure a bios from @Prema

    Here hoping you will get your machine back, soon.
     
  7. Phoenix

    Phoenix Super Tweaker

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    don't forget, the Clevo heatsinks are a joke, some are good, and others don't make good contact with the CPU. Let them try a different heatsink that makes better contact with the CPU it might be an easy fix
     
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  8. aziraphaleUK

    aziraphaleUK Notebook Consultant

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    I did ask Scan to install the latest bios for the P870DM2G as I was on Bios 1.05.03/EC 1.05.06 it came back with
    Bios 1.05.03/EC 1.05.08 thou I did think 1.06.XX was the latest myself.

    Have tried to find the latest stock bios without much luck as Prema's bios is not currently an option.

    Obsidian will most likely be my next supplier too esp if we get a good bios.
     
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  9. aziraphaleUK

    aziraphaleUK Notebook Consultant

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    @Phoenix Yeap Clevo heatsinks are pretty bad, my P570WM ended up with LM and a .9mm shim to bring that undercontrol
     
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  10. dm477

    dm477 Notebook Evangelist

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    Could very well be heatsink related. They are testing the unit right now so hopefully they would have something for me by tomorrow.

    @aziraphaleUK I like the fact that some (European) resellers such as obsidian and XMG are really proactive here. I tried to get Scan people to join NBR but they didn't seem that interested. I guess they feel they don't have to make any special effort to provide the best service possible since Clevo sales make up only a small part of their business.
     
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