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16X ftw! (Large pics inside)

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by SaferSephiroth, Oct 30, 2007.

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  1. SaferSephiroth

    SaferSephiroth The calamity from within

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  2. SaferSephiroth

    SaferSephiroth The calamity from within

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    Now this is genius people! Engineers ftmfw!
     
  3. Firov

    Firov Notebook Consultant

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    I find Wankel engines fascinating, though I'm curious. What exactly is the advantage of a Wankel?

    I know that its used in at least two cars, the RX-7 and RX-8. How do these cars perform when compared to cars in the same class with a more conventional engine?

    (Edit) - On a side note, I certainly wouldn't mind owning an RX-8. I kind of like how it looks, and its got an interesting engine.
     
  4. StoryR

    StoryR Notebook Geek

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    It's more of a power thing, very high RPM (tourquey if you will) from such a small and light engine...I could go one but I need to get out of the office and head home from work :D
     
  5. Bog

    Bog Losing it...

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    Give me an Audi any day (sorry, I am addicted to their cars as some members know).
     
  6. WackyT

    WackyT Notebook Deity

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    Rotary engines don't have to convert reciprocal power into rotational power like normal piston driven engines do. Some of the power produced is lost in the conversion.

    And you can stack more rotor modules for more power output without a total redesign.
     
  7. SaferSephiroth

    SaferSephiroth The calamity from within

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    There are many advantages to the Mazda rotaries:

    -More power with less displacement
    -No violent piston motions and the rotors move at 1/3 speed of the output shaft, resulting in smooth engine response and feel
    -Far fewer moving parts, there are no pistons, valves, cams, whatever. This means more reliability.
    - Chamber is divided into 4 dedicated areas for each of the 4 parts of the cycle, making this ideal for hydrogen and other fuels.

    No 1.3L piston engine will be able to do what the rotary can do without serious enhacements that become cost prohibitive.

    The true magic of the rotaries is revealed in the RX cars. Its not just about the engine, its about the entire package. Usually you see light weight, very good handling, amazing feeling cars. Its hard to describe, you have to drive it to feel it. The pictures above are actually comparing the 13B, the engine in the RX-8, with the all new 16X.

    There are also some disadvantages:

    - Mazda's rotaries burn a tad bit of oil, requiring you to check the oil level every other time you stop for gas. This is by design.
    - Rotaries consume a bit more gas than competitors, again this is by mazda's choice to meet emissions (Gas consumption will be better with the 16X)
    - Rotaries have been suceptible to emmisions trouble, especially with california. But, the RX-8 is actually an LEV (Low Emissions Vehicle) car, which is amazing for a rotary.
    - The efficiency of the rotary is not as high historically but again Mazda seems to have made progress with the 16X, resulting in more power and tq at all rpms.

    Its incredibly rare to see such drastic changes, the last time this happened was in the 70s.
     
  8. ccbr01

    ccbr01 Matlab powerhouse! NBR Reviewer

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    I don't want you to cause confusion to all, but N (rotations per minute) and torque are two different things. N can be turned into omega (mechanical) by multiplying rpm by 2(pie)/60. Then P=(torque)(omega) where P is power and you know the rest.

    Just some insight on rotating machines. :)
     
  9. CalebSchmerge

    CalebSchmerge Woof NBR Reviewer

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    Does someone care to give a brief explanation of how this thing works? It is quite interesting.
     
  10. chesieofdarock

    chesieofdarock Notebook Deity

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    Definatly! I drive an audi a3 3.2 S line quattro (2007) It is one beast of a car
     
  11. SaferSephiroth

    SaferSephiroth The calamity from within

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    I think this gif will explain most of it (Courtesy Wikipedia):

    [​IMG]

    You can see that for one revolution of 'A' equals three revolutions of 'B', meaning the the rotor (A) spins 1/3 the speed of the shaft.

    The tips of the rotor have speacial seals called Apex seals that isolate the 4 parts of the chamber.
     
  12. SaferSephiroth

    SaferSephiroth The calamity from within

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    In fact rotaries do not make much tq, and the peak is achieved at fairly high rpm at that.
     
  13. ccbr01

    ccbr01 Matlab powerhouse! NBR Reviewer

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    Yeah, if you have a well built machine that can take a good load at high rpm, that would be the best motor ever. :)

    This is coming from my synchronous and DC motor theory that I know.
     
  14. SideSwipe

    SideSwipe Notebook Virtuoso

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    well its good to know mazda's rotary investments are going to pay off since they invested so much into this unreliable machine. it's no secret that the old rotaries used to die out easily, I have seen more RX7s than any other car on the side of the road and sometimes dead in the middle of the street. While theyre amazing engines they did gain a bad reputation for being high maintenance and unreliable, one of the reasons I didnt buy that beautiful batmobile when I had the chance :(
     
  15. SaferSephiroth

    SaferSephiroth The calamity from within

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    Nonsense, if rotaries were so unreliable they wouldn't have won Le Mans and the RX-7 wouldn't have as many race victories that it has. Nothing puts an engine to the test better than racing. In fact the RX-8 itself is run in many races, stock RX-8 with minimal changes for racing applications, no engine modifications were done and they run well. Ill try to dig up some articles when i have time.

    In fact, the opposite is true. Rotaries can be extremely reliable, when done right. It is true the rotaries from the 70s had to be rebuilt often, but since the mid-80s this is not so true. N/A RX-7s are still running around, my own is a prime example. 167k and running strong. It is said that the rotary is strongest on its last day.

    Now the turbo rotaries are a different story...and there is a long list of reasons. In short, it has to do with mazda's poor design of turbocharged rotaries from the factory, insufficient tuning and care from owners, and heat damage to the engine.

    Nonetheless, there are turbo RX-8s running around and some have already seen 100k miles, so there is no reason to believe turbo rotaries can't last when done right.
     
  16. SideSwipe

    SideSwipe Notebook Virtuoso

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    that doesnt prove anything! racing an engine to its peak is one thing but eventual/random breakdowns happen all the time. also i doubt those engines were stock, they surely mod them and reinforce weak points to ensure longevity. the rotary engine has a stigma attached to it because of it can be hard to repair (or so Im told) and the wear on the engine.

    if rotaries were so great they would have been widely adopted by mazda but they seem to only be used for sports cars like the rx7, rx8 and cosmo. however i did mention that i saw rx7's broken down and yes they're turbocharged. the rx8 is a different story, mazda seems to have finally turned the rotary engine into something you can trust.
     
  17. SaferSephiroth

    SaferSephiroth The calamity from within

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  18. SaferSephiroth

    SaferSephiroth The calamity from within

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    I don't know what you mean by 'racing an engine to its peak'. Have you ever seen the 787B race car? It won Le Mans 24 hrs outright in 91, and when they took its engine apart it was still spanking new. It was a 4 rotor 2.6L 700hp beast. Search YouTube for videos.

    Mazdas in racing:

    http://rotarynews.com/node/view/938

    I particularly like this quote:

    What mods? Do you know how to mod a rotary?

    Shows your ignorance, so why bother to comment? You don't know what you are talking about.

    Again. Mazda actually did use rotaries in practically everything. Ever seen an rx3? They even put it in motorcycles, a bus, even a pickup.

    The RX-7 had more IMSA race wins than any other car in its class. There is no better proof, the rotaries are ideal in racing.
     
  19. SideSwipe

    SideSwipe Notebook Virtuoso

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    LOL i love how you suddenly go on the defensive about all this.

    seriously why dont you tell us why the rotary engine isnt used in every mazda car? they didnt use it in their family cars, using it in one bike and a pickup is not really ALL their cars is it? i am only telling you what i have heard/read, ignorant or not you dont have to go crying about how great the engine is cuz it is a good engine but it isnt as reliable as a typical engine and you yourself admitted that it depends on how mazda made them.

    stop trying to turn this into an argument and going on the defensive when no one has attacked you. I know you love your wankel engine but stop acting as if it's your one true love and you need to defend it. personally ive seen the failure rate of rotaries to be atrocious compared to similar cars, i doubt either of us has seen ever rotary and knows their failure rates. you had a good experience, that's great, i never met anyone who hadnt paid hundreds and even thousands in repairs.
     
  20. SaferSephiroth

    SaferSephiroth The calamity from within

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    You don't get it. It wasn't just Mazda, many companies experimented with rotaries and Mazda really did put it in family cars.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_RX-2

    Scroll down to the Mazda rotary timeline.

    Im trying to inform you with facts, not hearsay and rumor. If you take that as being defensive, then so be it.
     
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