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Thread: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

  1. #191
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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Ross View Post
    That firmware does not contain the string '18C' so no garbage collection on it. Commander Wolf knows a bit more about this particular drive I think, but if it is not using the new Samsung controller yes it would have stuttering issues.



    Hmmm...fully use the benefits of the SSD. Unless your notebook is limited to SATA 150 speeds, you are getting the full use out of it.



    So how is this related to the SSD? It is not.



    Again, check the firmware and the controller. That sounds like the old Samsung drive right now.

    If you go over to OCZ Technology Forums, you'll be able to read up on the Summit. Yes, it has its disadvantages - some still come with the non-GC firmware and have to be sent into OCZ for an upgrade, no TRIM support yet through Samsung will release a user-flashable updater soon to enable TRIM. But it has its advantages - no stuttering according to reports on that forum and others, much cheaper than an X25-M or OCZ Vertex/Agility, and if you have a GC enabled firmware you are good to go.

    Greg Ross,

    Thanks for the comments - if there is no GC on this drive, then why does the drive light stay on non-stop when you log off the computer (but the computer stays on) - even 8 hours or more later? Remember this was delivered just 6 weeks ago on a $6,000+ notebook (Dell).

    The notebook may be Sata2, but because the VAIO's CPU is running at 2.26 Ghz, then an SSD would be a waste for this specific notebook for 'real work' (I can produce up to 40GB of RAW NEF image files in a single shoot).

    As to how a 3+ minute reboot is related to SSD's? This is normal for you? The AMD Opteron desktop with the Intel G2 shut down in 2 to 5 seconds and rebooted in less than a minute. The Quad Core Extreme notebook with the Samsung drive took over three minutes to shut down and reboot. Even after 3 days (24+ hrs) of 'GC' it is still doing the same thing and when it is booted up again, it still 'stutters' by simply right clicking on a desktop icon or using multiple programs (three or more).

    I can see that there are some options (send the drive to Samsung/Dell to get the newest/best firmware), but these options are to me 'ridiculous'.

    I can also understand that the cost of these drives is in line to the competition on pure 'specs' and 'benchmarks', but if someone gave me this drive I wouldn't run it as my work system - it is simply below the performance of a mechanical hard drive - at least in terms of consistency.

    Again, I believe this drive has 'GC' from the fact that the drive is going non-stop once it is logged off.

    If you are right and Dell shipped less than two months ago an SSD on a $6,000+ notebook that is this bad, then it simply proves what Anand said about 'keeping your fingers crossed and praying' to get the latest firmware version on a Samsung SSD.

  2. #192
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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    Quote Originally Posted by ronan_zj View Post
    I have samsung 256G with VBM19D1Q, but I havent had any stuttering problem. Greg is right, this firmware doesnt have GC feature which was also confirmed by Samsungsemiconductor.
    ronan_zj, I see that you also have the 256GB version (my client has the 128GB one) and you also have the Intel SSD too.

    Oh! You also have the same model notebook as my client!

    Edit: Sorry, you have the E6400, he has the M6400.

    Is the Intel the system drive, or the Samsung?

    Also, has Dell released any firmware upgrades for the Samsung (I couldn't find any) or have you otherwise updated the firmware on your Samsung?

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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    Quote Originally Posted by tilleroftheearth View Post
    Thanks for the comments - if there is no GC on this drive, then why does the drive light stay on non-stop when you log off the computer (but the computer stays on) - even 8 hours or more later? Remember this was delivered just 6 weeks ago on a $6,000+ notebook (Dell).
    I do not know. While I admit a drive that is in a notebook that is 6 weeks old should have GC on it, the firmware string tells me otherwise.

    The notebook may be Sata2, but because the VAIO's CPU is running at 2.26 Ghz, then an SSD would be a waste for this specific notebook for 'real work' (I can produce up to 40GB of RAW NEF image files in a single shoot).
    I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here. Are you saying that you need a 3GHz CPU to take advantage of a 3Gbps SATA II link?

    As to how a 3+ minute reboot is related to SSD's? This is normal for you? The AMD Opteron desktop with the Intel G2 shut down in 2 to 5 seconds and rebooted in less than a minute. The Quad Core Extreme notebook with the Samsung drive took over three minutes to shut down and reboot. Even after 3 days (24+ hrs) of 'GC' it is still doing the same thing and when it is booted up again, it still 'stutters' by simply right clicking on a desktop icon or using multiple programs (three or more).
    The crash was not related to the SSD, and it sounds like the program or OS was related to the crash. Again, I'm fairly certain there is no GC on that drive. Do a secure erase and see if performance improves.

    I can see that there are some options (send the drive to Samsung/Dell to get the newest/best firmware), but these options are to me 'ridiculous'.
    Agreed. Right now Samsung is working on a firmware update that we can flash ourselves. Most drives (read most) had better be shipping with GC enabled now.

    Even if not, estimates point to an end of November delivery for TRIM firmware from Samsung. Any non-GC OCZ Summit user over at their forums flashes their drive back to factory state every month or two, just to old them over until the new firmware comes out.

    I agree that is stupid, but at least they do not have firmware issuse like:
    Intel) BIOS passwords caused an earlier firmware to brick the drive
    Intel) Firmware update to enable TRIM bricks drive
    Intel) If above mentioned firmware update did not brick drive, if you have W7 and TRIM enabled the firmware may brick the drive after *any* reboot.
    OCZ Vertex/Agility) Early firmware updates bricked drives
    OCZ V/A) Drives randomly stop appearing to the computer

    Granted most of these problems have been fixed, but the Summit has not had any firmware related issues that I am aware of.

    I can also understand that the cost of these drives is in line to the competition on pure 'specs' and 'benchmarks', but if someone gave me this drive I wouldn't run it as my work system - it is simply below the performance of a mechanical hard drive - at least in terms of consistency.

    Again, I believe this drive has 'GC' from the fact that the drive is going non-stop once it is logged off.
    Once again, I do suspect the firmware is not updated on that drive...or if it is a Dell OEM drive it might even have the older controller entirely. Stupid I know.

    If you are right and Dell shipped less than two months ago an SSD on a $6,000+ notebook that is this bad, then it simply proves what Anand said about 'keeping your fingers crossed and praying' to get the latest firmware version on a Samsung SSD.
    I'm going to emphasize a few things here:
    1) Buying the SSD straight from the OEM is dumb, considering drives from OCZ and Intel perform the same *or better* for the same *or less* money.
    2) The only Samsung drive that I know of that is worth its salt is the OCZ Summit. From what I understand, if you buy a Summit today you should have GC. We do not have any evidence (other than your Dell OEM drive that I think does not have GC) that OEM Samsung drives are good or not - AnandTech is certainly correct in that regard for OEM drives.
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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    Quote Originally Posted by sgilmore62 View Post
    Iometer 4k random write 60gb OCZ Summit 50% full.
    If you are trying to compare directly to Anand's results then you will need to configure IOMeter exactly the same as Anand. The length of the test, area of the disk to be used, queue depth, and so on can make MASSIVE differences to the final test results.

    OCZ used this fact to their advantage by creating an exceptionally light-weight IOMeter test for people to use when benching their old JMicron-based drives.

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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    The firmware on my two Samsung 256 GB SSD is VBM15D1Q and I'm not experiencing any stuttering.
    Thinkpad T430, Core I7 3520, Optimus NVS 5400M 1GB of video ram, 16 GB ram, 256 GB MSata Crucial M4 SSD, 512 GB Samsung 840 PRO SSD in Main Bay, 512 GB Samsung 830 SSD in Ultra Bay, 128 GB SDXC in card slot, 128 GB SDXC in express card slot.
    Windows 8 Pro 64 bit.

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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackboot View Post
    If you are trying to compare directly to Anand's results then you will need to configure IOMeter exactly the same as Anand. The length of the test, area of the disk to be used, queue depth, and so on can make MASSIVE differences to the final test results.

    OCZ used this fact to their advantage by creating an exceptionally light-weight IOMeter test for people to use when benching their old JMicron-based drives.
    Here is the thread from OCZ forums Iometer setup and you can check Tony's 4k random writes link for inconsistencies.
    Last edited by sgilmore62; 4th November 2009 at 05:45 PM.
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  7. #197
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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Ross View Post
    I do not know. While I admit a drive that is in a notebook that is 6 weeks old should have GC on it, the firmware string tells me otherwise.



    I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here. Are you saying that you need a 3GHz CPU to take advantage of a 3Gbps SATA II link?



    The crash was not related to the SSD, and it sounds like the program or OS was related to the crash. Again, I'm fairly certain there is no GC on that drive. Do a secure erase and see if performance improves.



    Agreed. Right now Samsung is working on a firmware update that we can flash ourselves. Most drives (read most) had better be shipping with GC enabled now.

    Even if not, estimates point to an end of November delivery for TRIM firmware from Samsung. Any non-GC OCZ Summit user over at their forums flashes their drive back to factory state every month or two, just to old them over until the new firmware comes out.

    I agree that is stupid, but at least they do not have firmware issuse like:
    Intel) BIOS passwords caused an earlier firmware to brick the drive
    Intel) Firmware update to enable TRIM bricks drive
    Intel) If above mentioned firmware update did not brick drive, if you have W7 and TRIM enabled the firmware may brick the drive after *any* reboot.
    OCZ Vertex/Agility) Early firmware updates bricked drives
    OCZ V/A) Drives randomly stop appearing to the computer

    Granted most of these problems have been fixed, but the Summit has not had any firmware related issues that I am aware of.



    Once again, I do suspect the firmware is not updated on that drive...or if it is a Dell OEM drive it might even have the older controller entirely. Stupid I know.



    I'm going to emphasize a few things here:
    1) Buying the SSD straight from the OEM is dumb, considering drives from OCZ and Intel perform the same *or better* for the same *or less* money.
    2) The only Samsung drive that I know of that is worth its salt is the OCZ Summit. From what I understand, if you buy a Summit today you should have GC. We do not have any evidence (other than your Dell OEM drive that I think does not have GC) that OEM Samsung drives are good or not - AnandTech is certainly correct in that regard for OEM drives.
    Again, thanks for the response.

    What I am trying to say is that in my situation, spending $600+ on an SSD to streamline the data stream from the hard drive to the CPU (which is all an SSD does) when that CPU can only do it at 2.26 Ghz, is not cost effective. Especially when I am achieving around 80% of the SSD's performance with a $40 product like eBoostr.

    The 'crash' as you call it certainly was not related to the SSD - this is simply a Windows 7 compatibility issue.

    What is an SSD issue is that even after the cause of the crash was found and solved (removed old Roxio, install new Roxio), the computer is Still taking 3 minutes to reboot - most of that time is spent on shutting down. This is certainly attributed to the SSD as the Intel was in the single digit second range for a shutdown.

    Greg, we are on different sides of the following issue; but I would rather have the option to flash a drive (or not) and have it die straight out and need to be replaced (I know how to backup/protect my data), than not be able to run it at an acceptable performance threshold (any mechanical drive).

    I am agreeing more with davepermen here with thinking that yes, the bricking was happening, but nowhere to the extent that people think (in other words, a very, very low percentage). Just that those that have had bricked drives are very vocal about it (as well they should be).

    As to losing data - I have much less sympathy for those that reported that because any drive can fail, let alone when you are updating the firmware on one.

    What I take away from your posts is that the firmware on my clients SSD is what is causing these issues for me (yes, me... he thinks that it's running fine on Win 7 compared to what he was suffering with Vista - even when he has his Intel G2 based desktop to compare it to).

    I will continue to be on the lookout for a firmware updater for him and if anything changes, I'll certainly post it here for all to know.

    Thank you for giving additional information as it applies to my post on this subject. I hope that with the G3 (from all manufacturers) and later SSD revisions these type of issues will be moot.

    I still stand by my statement that in my (notebook) usage case, any current SSD would not provide a cost effective upgrade compared to my Scorpio Blue 500 GB drive and eBoostr combination on my VAIO.

    This conclusion is contrary to what I read previously (many times) that 'an SSD is the biggest single performance boost you can do to your system'.

    This will also change when/if Braidwood is introduced and natively (to Vista/Win 7) offers the performance boost I'm currently seeing with eBoostr.

    To state this another way. I have more than doubled the performance of my notebook (when new) with Windows 7, 8GB RAM ($400) and an additional $40 on eBoostr (when it is available to be purchased). Don't forget that I am using a 16GB SSDD ExpressCard as eBoostr's cache, but I have bought that many years ago (no current cost to me).

    Even with the Intel G2 SSD, I would have spent over $600, still be using 4GB RAM and have had at best a 20% better performance 'experience' (if we totally and unrealistically discount the effect that half the RAM would have on my photo editing needs).

    So to be 'worse' (4Gb vs. 8GB RAM), for $200 more and to only gain at most 20% performance - I'll state this again - SSD's are in their infancy still - I'll consider them again when their many 'pro's' are not countered by such deal breaking 'cons'. The biggest of which is price currently. But the most deceptive is 'benchmarks'.

    I'll also repeat that unless you have maximized the other parts of your system (RAM, CPU, Video - whichever affects your computer usage the most), an SSD will only let you hit your particular performance brickwall faster (and only Slightly faster, if you are able to run eBoostr on that system properly, like I can with my VAIO).

    This was proven to me with the Intel G2 SSD installed on my clients AMD Opteron CPU based desktop system. Yes, the SSD posted 'insane' comparisons to my VRaptor/Raptor desktop for HD based tasks (unRARing, installing, etc.) but even to a firmware crippled Samsung SSD based notebook, the notebook hands the Opteron it's A$$ when used how my client needs it used (running AutoCAD) - this 'use' has nothing to do with hard drive speed - this 'use' is all about CPU horsepower and efficiency - which definitely held back the Intel SSD too, I'm sure.

    System Balance. That should be our goal.

    Which is what my first computer 'mentor' told me almost 30 years ago and it is still true today.

  8. #198
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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    Quote Originally Posted by jedisolo View Post
    The firmware on my two Samsung 256 GB SSD is VBM15D1Q and I'm not experiencing any stuttering.
    jedisolo,

    how full are your Samsungs?

    How (for what) do you use your computer?

    From your sig, I conclude (please correct me if needed) that your usage is very light. This is based on the 3GB RAM, 32bit O/S and same CPU that I have in my VAIO.

    Please note that I don't consider gaming 'usage', not because it doesn't tax the system, but because I have no personal basis of reference (never gamed).

    Have you tweaked your Win 7 Install to achieve a 'stutter' free system? Or is everything at 'default'?

    Thanks for any and all information you can provide.

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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    I have ran the Iometer 4k random write test 7 times along with the rest of the tests once and the 4k writes are degraded yet my WEI disk score has only dropped to 6.8. I will idle my system overnight and run the 4k test again in the morning. I will run PCMark Vantage HDD suite first.


    Last edited by sgilmore62; 4th November 2009 at 06:18 PM.
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    Default Re: SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News, and Advice)

    I also have P128 VMB1801Q Corsair drive and my HDD is as good as the day i bought it in June/July.
    I do though normally keep my HD's mostly empty anyway. I have always tended to do this even with a mechanical HD. I must admit i am more mindful to do with my SSD because of what i have read about performance degradation over time. My HD has about 97GB HD space left.
    I'm not a power user. I am though enjoying about a 24s boot up in W7 to to my desktop from a cold boot. The very low power consumption is very welcome as well.
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