S-XPS 1645 AC Power Throttle Issue Investigation

[Lorthirk]

I think we are agreed that you can safely use a larger power adaptor with a 1645, with Throttlestop not installed, or just monitoring, as the laptop will only draw what it needs, and this will never go over 90w anyway. Dell, though, are making a fine distinction between 'safely use' and 'will guarantee'.

However, with Throttlestop turned on, the laptop can draw more than 90w, and one of three things will happen:-
(i) if you are using a 90w adaptor, this will likely burn out. Or maybe a protection circuit will kick in; who knows?
(ii) if you are using a 130w or bigger adaptor, the laptop can draw more than 90w, many components will be stressed beyond Dell's design intentions, and some will be stressed beyond the design intentions of the individual component suppliers.
(iii) if you are using a 130w or bigger adaptor, the laptop can draw more than 90w, many components will be stressed beyond Dell's design intentions, but none will actually be stressed beyond the design intentions of the individual component suppliers.

Even if (iii) is the case, Dell will, as in my engine management chip analogy, likely decline to guarantee the laptop any longer as the solution is, at best, Not Invented Here.

Now let's look at what the testing of A04 might tell Dell. Maybe they have tried for (iii), and found it's unattainable for some reason, and they always get (ii). Or maybe they know that already....

So we have the choices:-
(a) They unthrottle the laptop completely, and make it able to still run on only 90w
(b) They futz with the throttling so it's rarer, but can still happen, and hold it to 90w still.
(c) They have the BIOS detect 90w or 130w, and unthrottle completely when they see 130w.

They will only do (c) if they can do (iii) above. Otherwise they will do (a) - or would if it wasn't likely contrary to the laws of physics - or (b).

They might even do (b) even if they could do (c), gambling that the hit on returned 1645s, and to their reputation, would still be cheaper than issuing 130w adaptors.

If Dell do actually do (c) - and the omens don't look too good for that at the moment - what they do may be like Throttlestop, better than Throttlestop (were that possible) or not as good as Throttlestop.

But because it would be their solution, validated in their way, to their standards, Dell would guarantee it.

Me, I still haven't put away the packaging this 1645 came in, and I won't while the jury is still out on it.

I really pray for (iii). I would be satisfied that way. But I think anyone would be. However, with my XPS delivering to me tomorrow, i won't throw away any packages too.

By the way, here's the XPS16 pdf i talked about before.

http://rapidshare.com/files/331923354/xps16.pdf.html

[jedismurf]

So took my XPS into our computer R&D department and they found the throttling issue. They suggested I put a number of questions to DELL. I began with asking if they knew and acknoledge the issue, which they said they did. Our technical guys also believe a BIOS fix may be possible without an upgraded powersupply, although this is unlikely and the easiest solution will be to get a larger one.

They also stated a number of questions I put to DELL:
1. My Technical teams response:Using higher W could be problematic for the battery (when charging) and other components.
Question to DELL:Do other dell models ship with the same battery and a higher then 90W PS?
Dell reponse: "I dont know"
Note: Does any here have an answer to this?

2. My Technical teams response: The 90W throttling threshold may be in place for more then just the power supply. Typically then limit the power supply supply based on the heat as well.
Question to DELL: Do you anticipate any issue with using a higher W powersupply?
Dell Response: Yes, we believe you may experience over heating issues. We would only allow a higher W PS if you agree to use a cooling matt. You should not experience any other issues, however this has not been tested.

3. My Technical teams response: It is clear that when on battery power, more then 90W can be drawn at any given time. However when drawing from battery a number of BIOS configurations change.
Question to DELL: When on battery power it is clear the system requires more then 90W of power. If the battery is drawing more then 90W how do you expect a BIOS fix to address the issue?
Dells response: I dont know, I will have one of our infrastructure engineers call your technology team on monday.

I also enquired about warranty and using programs such a as throttlestop. They refused to answer on the grounds that the new BIOS would fix the issue, and to wait until then...

They also mentioned that it was not a gaming machine. (I pointed out that I was not using it for gaming and that the system does not preform to its epcification).

I also said if the issue could not be 100% rectified I expected:
1. A new PS
2. A BIOS fix with the new PS (which does not just mask the issue)
3. That a cooling mat twould not be required or would be supplied for free
4. Compensation

If not I expected:
1. A full refund
2. An apology
3. Compensation

I will reevaluate once i get the new BIOS. But if it doesnt work I will be suggesting to our technology team we re-evlauate our contracts with dell and take my issue to consumer affairs.

Thanks,

M

[Lorthirk]

The more I read about this issue, the more depressed I am. I should be happy as a jumping bunny since tomorrow I'll meet my XPS for the first time, instead I find myself wondering if I can even keep it. Help.

[Siphen]

They also stated a number of questions I put to DELL:
1. My Technical teams response:Using higher W could be problematic for the battery (when charging) and other components.
Question to DELL:Do other dell models ship with the same battery and a higher then 90W PS?
Dell reponse: "I dont know"
Note: Does any here have an answer to this?

if your battery is fully drained and your system is idle, it has around 40W to pull on a idle system, or 81W to pull on a computer turned off. running a 90W adaptor.

i have never had the system pull over 70W while charging the battery, which tells me they limit how fast the battery can be charged - which means more w to the system would not cause any issue to the battery.

[eblock12]

I wouldn't be surprised if the January BIOS will do nothing at all to address the issue. They were telling us the Dec 15th update would fix the issue, and it had nothing to do with it.

[Unreasnbl]

The problem with fraud class actions is that reliance (a key element of a fraud claim) turns out to be an individual issue and almost always makes class treatment inappropriate, except for narrow exceptions such as fraud on the market in the securities context. The SCOTUS has narrowed the types of actions suitable for class treatment considerably since the late 90s.

I am not saying Dell is without blame here; indeed, quite the contrary. Dell should suffer some ramifications for putting out a crippled product. Just saying that if I were on the defense side in a Dell "fraud" class action, I would feel pretty good about my chances of busting the class.

I am not suggesting this is a fraud case. I am suggesting that the item does not perform as advertised because the cost department and the performance department at Dell did not work this out. They now know it's wrong, and thus far have not fixed it.

[zimmyntrn]

Just got off the phone with "the xps experience" technical support and they "promised" me that the bios would be released by the end of the 2nd week or beginning of the 3rd week of January.

The representative also assured me that the update would address adapter issues as well as power consumption issues.

Amusingly he recommended I buy a 3rd party adapter that is more than 90W....

Dell starting to change their stance on the adapter maybe? we can only hope.

[HSeldon]

I'm pretty tempted to return this thing. The fact that dell is telling people that the thing isn't designed for games is pretty crappy. I don't see how the new bios will fix this without a new adapter. The thing throttles since there is not enough power for all the components. It's been show repeatedly. In order for me to play a game with the included 90W adapter I have to reduce brightness to minimum and turn off the keyboard backlight. And even then the multiplier sits at 7. Unless they can magically reduce the power draw of the 4670 and i7 720 while keeping the same performance, it's not going to happen with the 90W.

I just spec'd the envy 15 with similar config, but includes ATI 5830 and it's pretty close in price. And they ship with a 120W adapter.

I'm getting close to my 21 days (delivered on 12/14), so not sure what I should do.

[ikjadoon]

EDIT:

All right...after some thought (and a very helpful message!), I've realized maybe I shouldn't have posted that direct quote from the email.

The gist: there is more to this issue than we think. People are working hard.

It's ambiguous and you won't like it, but there is more to this issue than meets the eye. My laptop is on it's way to Dell. They're working. No one's forgotten us yet.

[atlstang]

whether its fud or not who knows, but they sure arnt saying much. I really hope these "engineers" have help this time, as their first time and letting this problem through is pretty bad. It would be like heres your corvette but with square wheels getting through testing.

does give some hope, maybe. At least he could give was an actuall eta? or did he say and im just confused by all the other eta's thats been givin out?

I have no problem being wrong, but what weve seen, they have a mountain of explination to climb when the day arrives.