M18x R2 HD 7970M Xfire GTX 680M SLI when ?

[Zero989]

[COLOR="Navy"]Fair? No such thing as that. In terms of hardware performance, anything goes. Unfair would be more like using software to fake results, or disabling features like tessellation so that benchmark results are totally skewed. But adjusting voltage and clocks is not unfair. It just separates good hardware from awesome hardware. Otherwise, we would be saying 7970M is "unfair" LOL. Setting aside benchmark scores, unless AMD does something unusual, NVIDIA will most likely remain superior in games because of its proprietary technologies that make games look better and play better. At stock speeds there is not much difference between 6990M CF and 580M SLI in game play as far as FPS performance is concerned, but the visual quality of games is noticeably better with 580M SLI. When I switched over to green because of hardware reliability issues with reds I was shocked at how much better things looked. Round objects were actually round looking, edges were smoother, everything looked much crisper and more lifelike than cartoonish. At equal framerates, gameplay is smoother with NVIDIA. This is especially true at lower frame rates. Plus, NVIDIA seems to have a much stronger influence on game development.If NVIDIA does not come through with something better in this round, there's always the next one. Or, switching to 7970M after early adopters work out the kinks isn't so bad either. There is sometimes a down side to early adoption. We can only make assumptions about what's going to happen. Coming to the party late after seeing what actually did happen is pretty smart.

6990Ms can be volt-modded physically which would actually even the ground. That is saying if unfair means anything goes.

As for higher IQ and less micro-stuttering I don't know what to say to that. I've owned nVIDIA several times and have never noticed a difference between the competing ATi card.

Currently in the process of getting a CFX 7950 system (I'm leaving high-end notebooks until 2013)

6990M CF
6970M CF
GTX 480 eVGA
GTX 480 PNY
Radeon 5870 Mobility
GTX 260m SLI
GTX 280m SLI
GTX 260 (216SP)
GTX 285
GTX 260 (192SP)
8800GTS
X1600 Mobility
7900GTO
X800XT Platinum Edition
9700Pro
GeForce 4 Ti

The only time major IQ differences have ever been announced was against nVIDIA's own cards:

GeForce FX 5800 (2003) had higher quality AF than GeForce 7900GTX (2006).

nVIDIA's new 690 Limited Edition $999 is reported to have less micro-stuttering than all nVIDIA's previous SLI configs.

Default AMD settings vs. Default nVIDIA settings don't mean anything at all.

As far as AA modes are concerned, ATi (AMD), recently released new modes with the 12.4 driver. I don't think comparisons mean much when technology is always moving unless its at least up-to-date.

This might support your argument:

The Bottom Line
While we know not a lot people run triple-card video configurations, looking at the gameplay experiences between NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 3-Way SLI and AMD Radeon HD 7970 Tri-Fire CrossFireX sure gives us an interesting topic for discussion and surely brings some things to light when it comes to Red vs. Green. This is the ultimate build in terms of gaming performance, but the experiences between both couldn\'t be more different.

There is an overall smoothness and consistency advantage to SLI that is superior to CrossFireX when gaming at high resolutions like 5760x1200. These types of configurations are mostly going to be used to push multiple displays and high resolutions. You would think that the advantage would go toward HD 7970 Tri-Fire since it has more VRAM and memory bandwidth. Indeed in some cases we saw where we could technically use higher settings with Tri-Fire. However, even in those circumstances SLI still felt smoother, and there wasn\'t a large noticeable visual quality difference.

[5150Joker]

Zero: I think Mr. Fox is talking about more detail (e.g. in games that support nVidia specific features like PhysX and FXAA) in games vs. AMD which require driver hacks or flat our don't have support.

Furthermore, nVidia MSAA does have better IQ than AMD MSAA, I've put both side by side in an M18x and have seen it. It's hard to capture through a camera but in motion its very evident. What's more, nVidia cards tend to have less steep drops into minimum fps territory like AMD cards do, hence you get a smoother experience. This is especially compounded in Crossfire vs SLi situations.

Also, nVidia drivers and support are far and away better than AMD. Just to give one anecdotal example, when I had 6990M Xfire (and 6970M Xfire before that), BF3 had an ongoing problem with flickering textures in some levels. This took a long time to resolve. Then there's that issue with AMD drivers having broken brightness control in the M18x (has it even been fixed yet?) and prior to that, we had to make a major push for Dell to convince AMD to release a properly working vbios that would support their latest drivers for the 5870M Xfire.

Lastly, don't forget nVidia has a much better stereoscopic 3D implementation, optimus enjoys broad support and their TWIMTBP program is usually present in AAA games thus guaranteeing a smooth gaming experience. nVidia simply executes consistently better, even if their hardware costs more, its justified by their awesome support.

[Zero989]

I'm not even going to acknowledge drivers because AMD will never be up to par, at least for another couple of years.

Yes PhysX and FXAA > What 6990M offers but 12.4 drivers offer enhancements in IQ with SSAA.

AMD's default settings have been known to cut corners (Catalyst AI), but this can be disabled by setting quality to high quality.

AA Modes on the 580M are superior to the 6990M but not for this next round.

3D is also a joke when it comes to AMD; I'm not acknowledging that either.

The 580Ms are far superior to the 6990Ms, no question, I just don't see the same happening with the 680M vs. 7970M. It doesn't matter to me though because I want more power and am moving back to desktops :P. I have a feeling that the GTX 685 will be unstoppable this year, literally unstoppable.

87% the performance of a 690 for $700.

Talking about AA image quality for new cards :

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=226244

[ARGH]

I'm not even going to acknowledge drivers because AMD will never be up to par, at least for another couple of years.

Yes PhysX and FXAA > What 6990M offers but 12.4 drivers offer enhancements in IQ with SSAA.

AMD's default settings have been known to cut corners (Catalyst AI), but this can be disabled by setting quality to high quality.

AA Modes on the 580M are superior to the 6990M but not for this next round.

3D is also a joke when it comes to AMD; I'm not acknowledging that either.

The 580Ms are far superior to the 6990Ms, no question, I just don't see the same happening with the 680M vs. 7970M. It doesn't matter to me though because I want more power and am moving back to desktops :P. I have a feeling that the GTX 685 will be unstoppable this year, literally unstoppable.

87% the performance of a 690 for $700.

Talking about AA image quality for new cards :

Feature request: LOD adjustment for DirectX 10, 10.1, 11 and OpenGL - NVIDIA Forums

what do you need more power for? 6990m can max anything at 1080p and just use a frame limiter to smooth things out when multi-gpu shows it's classic stuttering.

[DarkSkies]

Currently in the process of getting a CFX 7950 system (I'm leaving high-end notebooks until 2013)

To be perfectly honest I am considering the same thing. I've been thinking about a 3D Surround setup run by 3x AW2310 and 2x evga GTX 680 water cooled.

As I can imagine, 680M in SLI for R1 will cost more than 1000 EUR and I already paid that for 580M SLI last year. I can afford it but the thing is, maybe it is simply not worth it. For 1k I can get more than 1/3 of the setup I want, especially as I already own single AW2310.

The way notebook hardware manufacturers artificially limit their products just in order to sell new hardware next year is discouraging, cannot deny that.

[Zero989]

what do you need more power for? 6990m can max anything at 1080p and just use a frame limiter to smooth things out when multi-gpu shows it's classic stuttering.

I need to do some hardcore 3D rendering. (3930K)

2760QM too slow.

To be perfectly honest I am considering the same thing. I've been thinking about a 3D Surround setup run by 3x AW2310 and 2x evga GTX 680 water cooled.

As I can imagine, 680M in SLI for R1 will cost more than 1000 EUR and I already paid that for 580M SLI last year. I can afford it but the thing is, maybe it is simply not worth it. For 1k I can get more than 1/3 of the setup I want, especially as I already own single AW2310.

The way notebook hardware manufacturers artificially limit their products just in order to sell new hardware next year is discouraging, cannot deny that.

That, and I want Tahiti NOT Kepler/PitCairn in mobile form, which hasn't been announced.

I will move to GTX 685 SLI later in the year. I'm gonna go for some desktop benching records . I'll then go back to 8970M CFX/780M SLI (2013).

[Mr. Fox]

Zero: I think Mr. Fox is talking about more detail (e.g. in games that support nVidia specific features like PhysX and FXAA) in games vs. AMD which require driver hacks or flat our don't have support.

Yes, this is what I was referring to. +1 Rep. Although anecdotal, I was alluding to actual visual differences that I noticed immediately when I moved from 6990M CF to 580M SLI. To elaborate further... and still in an anecdotal manner... It was profoundly better visual quality. Besides BF3 flickering, this was also a problem with Crysis. One of the first things I noticed was that Crysis not only had zero flickering with 580M SLI, it also looked a whole lot better. I noticed this in other games also, but Crysis has been one of my favorites since it was released and it was one of the first games I ran with 580M SLI. As a long time AMD (ATI) user, I had never known Crysis to not have flickering issues to some extent.

As everyone knows, I like benching. One of the first things I noticed in 3DMark11 was huge improvement in graphics test #4. That particular test was always super choppy and jerky with 6970M/6990M CF. The FPS were not much higher with 580M SLI than 6990M CF (as long as tessellation is turned off with AMD, otherwise 580M SLI FPS were higher). However, that test is much smoother looking and more fluid in movement with 580M SLI than it is with 6990M CF running at roughly equal FPS.

In Vantage, I noticed shadows, light reflections, steam and other visual elements that I never even knew existed with 6970M/6990M CF. I was not able to see some of those elements with the AMD cards, and some were very muted and not especially noticeable. In Unigine's Heaven, Sanctuary and Tropics benchmarks everything looked a lot better to me, and I was able to run with tessellation almost as fast as 6990M CF ran with tessellation disabled.

Things just seem to "pop" visually to a greater extent in games and benchmarks. I know that is all anecdotal observation, but it was enough to impress me. I am still not a fanboy for either brand, but I was somewhat anti-NVIDIA before switching to 580M SLI because I had serious problems with the "NVIDIA defect" that affected the only 3 NVIDIA-based computers I had ever owned in 20+ years of computing. At the offer of Alienware, I switched to 580M SLI only out of desperation. It was with a degree of apprehension, but I was fed up with problems I was having with AMD 6970M/6990M CF (multiple hardware failures in a very short time, not to mention horrendous driver issues, one release after another). I ended up being very pleased with the change, for all of the above reasons.

As evidence that I am not a NVIDIA fanboy, I am seriously considering an upgrade to 7970M CF because of my fondness for benching. I still value performance over eye candy, but I have been impressed enough with 580M SLI that I'm not rushing into anything. I am dragging my feet a bit to see if GTX 680M SLI materializes. If it does, and overall performance is similar, I will choose 680M SLI over 7970M CF for no reasons other than NVIDIA's superior driver support and visual quality. If the performance crown is passed to AMD in this round, I can deal with AMD's crummy drivers if I need to. I have been doing my own AMD/ATI driver tweaks and hacks for a long time, (at least since the ATI Rage 128 was the hottest thing going,) it's just really nice to not have to resort to that for a change.

[Terreos]

To be perfectly honest I am considering the same thing. I've been thinking about a 3D Surround setup run by 3x AW2310 and 2x evga GTX 680 water cooled.

As I can imagine, 680M in SLI for R1 will cost more than 1000 EUR and I already paid that for 580M SLI last year. I can afford it but the thing is, maybe it is simply not worth it. For 1k I can get more than 1/3 of the setup I want, especially as I already own single AW2310.

The way notebook hardware manufacturers artificially limit their products just in order to sell new hardware next year is discouraging, cannot deny that.

If the m18x r2 came with the HD 7970m from the start I'd likely have one ordered by now. But, I know in a year at most there with be the next gen cards and processors. I've come to the conclusion that my m17x R2 has enough life in it just to upgrade until the next gen stuff comes out.

[Zero989]

Yes, this is what I was referring to. Although anecdotal, I was alluding to actual visual differences that I noticed immediately when I moved from 6990M CF to 580M SLI. To elaborate further... and still in an anecdotal manner... It was profoundly better visual quality. Besides BF3 flickering, this was also a problem with Crysis. One of the first things I noticed was that Crysis not only had zero flickering with 580M SLI, it also looked a whole lot better. I noticed this in other games also, but Crysis has been one of my favorites since it was released and it was one of the first games I ran with 580M SLI. As a long time AMD (ATI) user, I had never known Crysis to not have flickering issues to some extent.

As everyone knows, I like benching. One of the first things I noticed in 3DMark11 was huge improvement in graphics test #4. That particular test was always super choppy and jerky with 6970M/6990M CF. The FPS were not much higher with 580M SLI than 6990M CF (as long as tessellation is turned off with AMD, otherwise 580M SLI FPS were higher). However, that test is much smoother looking and more fluid in movement with 580M SLI than it is with 6990M CF running at roughly equal FPS.

In Vantage, I noticed shadows, light reflections, steam and other visual elements that I never even knew existed with 6970M/6990M CF. I was not able to see some of those elements with the AMD cards, and some were very muted and not especially noticeable. In Unigine's Heaven, Sanctuary and Tropics benchmarks everything looked a lot better to me, and I was able to run with tessellation almost as fast as 6990M CF ran with tessellation disabled.

Things just seem to "pop" visually to a greater extent in games and benchmarks. I know that is all anecdotal observation, but it was enough to impress me. I am still not a fanboy for either brand, but I was somewhat anti-NVIDIA before switching to 580M SLI because I had serious problems with the "NVIDIA defect" that affected the only 3 NVIDIA-based computers I had ever owned in 20+ years of computing. At the offer of Alienware, I switched to 580M SLI only out of desperation. It was with a degree of apprehension, but I was fed up with problems I was having with AMD 6970M/6990M CF (multiple hardware failures in a very short time, not to mention horrendous driver issues, one release after another). I ended up being very pleased with the change, for all of the above reasons.

As evidence that I am not a NVIDIA fanboy, I am seriously considering an upgrade to 7970M CF because of my fondness for benching. I still value performance over eye candy, but I have been impressed enough with 580M SLI that I'm not rushing into anything. I am dragging my feet a bit to see if GTX 680M SLI materializes. If it does, and overall performance is similar, I will choose 680M SLI over 7970M CF for no reasons other than NVIDIA's superior driver support and visual quality. If the performance crown is passed to AMD in this round, I can deal with AMD's crummy drivers if I need to. I have been doing my own AMD/ATI driver tweaks and hacks for a long time, (at least since the ATI Rage 128 was the hottest thing going,) it's just really nice to not have to resort to that for a change.

It might have something to do with Fermi being all the same tech while 69x0M series is not based off the 6970, but rather the 6870.

That's another reason why the 580m smashed the 69x0 in tessellation based games.

Oh well -- good times.

[Aikimox]

Things just seem to "pop" visually to a greater extent in games and benchmarks. I know that is all anecdotal observation, but it was enough to impress me. I am still not a fanboy for either brand, but I was somewhat anti-NVIDIA before switching to 580M SLI because I had serious problems with the "NVIDIA defect" that affected the only 3 NVIDIA-based computers I had ever owned in 20+ years of computing. At the offer of Alienware, I switched to 580M SLI only out of desperation. It was with a degree of apprehension, but I was fed up with problems I was having with AMD 6970M/6990M CF (multiple hardware failures in a very short time, not to mention horrendous driver issues, one release after another). I ended up being very pleased with the change, for all of the above reasons.

As evidence that I am not a NVIDIA fanboy, I am seriously considering an upgrade to 7970M CF because of my fondness for benching. I still value performance over eye candy, but I have been impressed enough with 580M SLI that I'm not rushing into anything. I am dragging my feet a bit to see if GTX 680M SLI materializes. If it does, and overall performance is similar, I will choose 680M SLI over 7970M CF for no reasons other than NVIDIA's superior driver support and visual quality. If the performance crown is passed to AMD in this round, I can deal with AMD's crummy drivers if I need to. I have been doing my own AMD/ATI driver tweaks and hacks for a long time, (at least since the ATI Rage 128 was the hottest thing going,) it's just really nice to not have to resort to that for a change.

Funny thing, when we had both the 580ms and 6990ms equipped machines at the office side by side, nobody could tell any difference in visuals, neither in games nor in benches.

Anyway, I'm also out of the high-end laptop market but for a different reason. Into ultraportables now and am absolutely amazed by MBA's. If they release the famous retina display with the refresh in a month from now - I'm gonna be all over it.