UPDATE 12/15/09: John from Dell spoke to engineering about this issue and unfortunately the response was a disappointing one.
Here is what he posted in the thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBatDell
Hey all. I spoke with engineering last night and early this morning, and wanted to give you an update on what we have.
There's been some pretty extensive testing on this issue, and our engineering team has come to the conclusion that throttling shouldn't occur at all in any real world scenario. As a result, they aren't planning on doing any BIOS revisions in response to this, but are still investigating to see if they can discover what causes this behavior while using these testing programs. It is, however, the general consensus that changing this is too risky for the potential payoff… too much could go wrong when this really isn’t a behavior you’d see while gaming.
That being said, this system should scream when gaming, and if you have any performance issues, they probably have nothing to do with this, and you should contact tech support to troubleshoot.
I did ask about folding@home's implications on this, and was pleased to discover several people on our engineering team that use the program. They discovered that folding at home drove the cores to 90% and stopped, and only did this when the system was idle, and therefore shouldn't trigger throttling.
I know this isn't the answer many wanted to hear, but this is where we're at.
From my personal perspective, I'd like to say that if what I'm doing with my system drives my CPU cores and GPU to a sustained 100%, I'd expect performance issues there, and would probably be looking to upgrade my system. I don't see that happening with this system any time in the near future.
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This is what my response was and I hope other gamers share my concern and voice their opinion with Dell as well:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by 5150Joker
It is indeed a disappointing response from the engineering team but you have our thanks for bringing it up with them. I hope they are fully aware that even if some of the AAA title games that have been tested aren't exhibiting the problem right now, a game released tomorrow or in the next 6 months may very well force the CPU to work at or near peak load. When that happens, the GPU will throttle and Dell will have many many angry customers on its hands demanding to know why their expensive gaming system is rendered obsolete.
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End user documented cases of M15x throttling occurring in games/applications (last updated 12/19/09):
- Laptop Forums and Notebook Computer Discussion - View Single Post - AW M15x Throttling Issue Investigation - Stock clocks and overclocked. by Wattos
- Laptop Forums and Notebook Computer Discussion - View Single Post - AW M15x Throttling Issue Investigation - Stock clocks and overclocked. by MrZombieBunny
- Laptop Forums and Notebook Computer Discussion - View Single Post - AW M15x Throttling Issue Investigation - Stock clocks and overclocked. by Arkhias
End user documented cases of M15x throttling via synthetic tests:
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Download links for the programs discussed in this thread:
1.
Furmark
2.
GPU-Z
3.
Prime 95
4.
Intel Burn Test
5.
HWMonitor (not mentioned but recommended anyway)
6.
ThrottleStop used to set a fixed multiplier and disable clock modulation.
7.
RivaTuner 2.24c (needed for throttling fix)
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***DISCLAIMER: I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD ANY DAMAGE OCCUR TO YOUR SYSTEM. TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK!***
Instructions for testing, please note these are general guidelines only:
-
Apps: Furmark, Prime95, GPU-Z (for monitoring), RealTemp (to monitor CPU frequency) and optionally RivaTuner.
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Settings:- Furmark: Native resolution (for me it's 1600x900), 16xAA, checkmark the stability test box, checkmark the xtreme burn button and also checkmark the post processing button.
- GPU-Z: Have it open with the sensor tab selected so you can monitor the clock fluctuations in real time. Also checkmark the continous refreshing box + the log to file box so you can reference it later.
- Prime 95: Small TFTs, 8 threads.
- RealTemp: Use it to measure and log CPU frequency changes (as well as view the active load). Use the logs from this program and compare them to the GPU-Z log.
Once you have run the above 4 applications simultaneously at
stock GPU clocks, take note if you have seen any fluctuations in GPU clocks (you will see the Furmark graph throttle like how I depicted and your GPU-Z log will also show clock changes). If there are fluctuations, you are likely witnessing throttling. Take note of the RealTemp CPU frequency log and see how it matches up with the GPU-Z log.
EDIT 8/08/10: Although the above method to test for throttling does work when testing for 260M throttling, keep in mind it is an extreme form of testing and may not be reflective of real world use. To gauge if your system is throttling in day to day gaming, it would be advised to try a CPU/GPU intensive game such as Bad Company 2, Grand Theft Auto IV, StarCraft II etc. If you note throttling in those popular games, then Dell needs to be contacted.
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Background info.:
I've posted this in the main M15x thread but I think this deserves it's own thread since it could be a potentially serious issue with the M15x design. To give some quick background information on the issue with people not familiar with it: The M15x, using stock GPU clocks or when overclocked, will throttle it's speed from the default 575/950/1350 to 3D clocks of 383/301 anytime the system is placed under heavy stress (e.g. this could happen in a game that stresses the system considerably).
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Original post with some changes:
It seems the M15x is having similar power throttling issues as the
Dell Studio XPS 1645. I did a reinstall of the drivers with 186.81/186.82/195.55 (all 3 got the same results) and used the following settings:
Intel burn test: 32 threads, maximum stress level or Prime95 using a maximum of 3200 MB of memory set to custom mode and 8 threads.
Furmark: 1600x900, 8xAA, stability test, post processing and xtreme burn
GPU-Z for monitoring.
The results will surprise you all:
Overclocked settings: 620/950/1550 with the above settings except furmark was not using post processing (so even less stress was placed on the system):
Notice at the beginning I kept the display brightness to zero to test if this was indeed a power issue. There were no dips in performance (no throttling) when I had it at zero. I then moved the LCD brightness to half and shortly thereafter, the throttling started. I then later moved it to full brightness and a you can see, the rate of cycling from full clock to throttle clocks occurred more frequently. At the end of the graph, I set the brightness back to zero and it was again stable at full clocks.
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Stock clocks with P95 + furmark (8xaa, post processing, stability, xtreme burn, 1600x900):
I've included two images to show the clock cycling from stock to throttled 3d clocks:
This leads me to believe it is either an AC adapter power limitation similar to what is happening to the Dell SXPS 1645, bios issue or a mainboard design flaw. Either way, stock settings under full load should not have caused the system to throttle, especially since it was not under any thermal stress. I had someone with a Sager 8690 perform the same test and he reported no throttling.
Overall, I think this could potentially be bad news for everyone because the system will throttle itself when it's under maximum stress. I'll test this theory out further with Crysis Warhead and a few other games later on but if others would like to contribute, that would be great. This could also be a limitation of my own system so I'd encourage others to test and see if it happens to you.
Please include your configuration details as well as driver version. Lastly, if anyone has an M17x adapter with them and does get throttling, you could plug the M17x adapter into the M15x and see if it still happens. This would give a definitive confirmation of whether or not it's an AC adapter limitation. I have an M17x adapter on order but it will not get here until Monday or Tuesday of next week. Unfortunately, I cannot use a battery test since the system defaults to 3D clocks (383/301) despite the high performance profile being set to utilize 100% GPU power when unplugged.
EDIT:I have confirmed that the M17x adapter DOES NOT solve the problem.
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EDIT: Ran OCCT PSU test and this is what GPU-Z recorded:
The spikes are when the GPU cycled to full stock speeds and the rest was when it throttled.
EDIT 2: The notebook also throttles at
underclocked settings! This does not bode well at all for the M15x.
EDIT 3: I'm attaching GPUz and Tmonitor log files that show what happens during the cyclical throttling.
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UPDATE 12/08/09:
With turbo disabled in the bios, a bit more information is shed on the throttling issue. Notice that each time the 4 cores drop below 100% load, the GPU throttles with them. At peak CPU load (100%), the GPU stays at 100% until the CPU is throttled below 100% and with it the GPU also scales back it's clocks. Normally the GPU cycles far more frequently when Turbo mode is enabled but with it disabled, the rate of the GPU throttling is much slower.
Normally when Intel Burn Test is used by itself (not in conjunction with furmark), all 4 CPU cores stay pegged at 100% but when Furmark + Intel Burn Test are run together, the CPU clocks begin throttling together with the GPU clocks. This seems to further reinforce the idea that this throttling issue is power related.
Click on the HD button to view the movie in 720p (in full screen) so you can see the clocks more clearly.
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UPDATE 12/19/09: Using a beta build of ThrottleStop by unclewebb, I was able to further test how and why throttling occurs and believe it is a power issue. Specifically, when the CPU multiplier was set to 10x on an i820 processor (1333 MHz), the GPU did not throttle at stock clocks of 550/950/1350 using the furmark + prime95 synthetic benchmark. However, if the GPU clock frequency was raised beyond stock settings, it would immediately throttle during testing even with the CPU frequency at 10x. Furthermore, other users have reported real world findings and have noted the CPU does not need to be at 100% on all 4 cores, rather even 2 cores at 100% + turbo mode is sufficient to cause GPU throttling. In one users case (Arkhias), the throttling was not cyclical but rather it caused the GPU to stay throttled when he was in a busy part of a game (Dalaran in World of Warcraft).
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IMPORTANT UPDATE 12/21/09: Throttling Fix
***DISCLAIMER: I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD ANY DAMAGE OCCUR TO YOUR SYSTEM. TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK!*** The research behind solving this throttling issue is ongoing and as such, the instructions are subject to revision.
I think I've stumbled upon a temporary fix that will enable everyone with an M15x to run the system at max clocks under max CPU/GPU load. The throttling fix as of right now is a two part fix. One involves forcing the GPU to run at any clock you set via RivaTuner and the other is forcing the CPU to stay
at maximum load without throttling down it's active load state. Don't look to task manager to measure the CPU load, it is not reliable. If you want a true measurement of your CPU load state, use RealTemp 3.50. With that said, here are the steps to fix the throttling:
Quote:
INSTRUCTIONS FOR THROTTLING FIX:The following are steps to resolving the throttling issue for both the CPU and GPU.
- To fix the GPU throttling, use RivaTuner:
1. Download RivaTuner 2.24c
2. Next, go to RivaTuner\Overclocking\Global, expand it and for "MaxClockLimit" set it to 300 and "DisableClockTest" to 1. Next under Rivatuner\NVIDIA\Overclocking set "EnablePerfLevelForcing" to 1.
3. Finally, go to the Main tab, under the driver settings, click the half arrow next to "customize", click on "system settings", go to the overclocking tab, enable driver level overclocking, set it to performance 3D and set your default GPU clocks. Towards the bottom, you will see, "force constant performance level", set that to performance 3D as well and click apply.
- UPDATE 1/3/2010 for CPU Throttling Fix:
I've been working with UncleWebb in testing for an easy to use solution for the CPU throttling portion of the throttling fix. Well thanks to his mad programming skills, we now have the latest release of ThrottleStop which will solve the CPU throttling problem! The instructions are simple, download the program, turn it on, checkmark both the chipset and clock modulation boxes and set them to 100%. You must enable ThrottleStop each time you want to play a game that pushes the CPU to ensure maximum gaming performance and CPU utilization. My own testing has shown that with ThrottleStop, CPU performance gains are as high as 50%! If you find ThrottleStop useful for your day to day use, please consider donating via PayPal to UncleWebb for all his efforts. He did all this free for the community so a small donation is the least we can do. If you are interested in donating, please PM me for information.
If you have done everything properly, you will see the following result:
- Video Bios Flash for Overclockers: WARNING, THIS COULD BRICK YOUR SYSTEM IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!
As promised, the instructions for flashing your video card are now available along with the necessary files. Please keep in mind that I have only tested these on my M15x and they work fine. Flashing your video bios can be risky and if done wrong will brick your video card. There are ways to recover it using a blind flash but that is left up to you to figure out. I only recommend this option for those that wish to overclock their video cards while using the rivatuner GPU throttle fix:
How to make bootable USB to flash the AW M15x Video Bios
1. Download the HP USB Key Utility: HP USB Disk Storage Format Tool - v2.1.8 Download - EXTREME Overclocking
2. Download the Windows 98 system files: Windows 98 System Files Download - EXTREME Overclocking
3. Download the bios .rom files (I've included the original oldbios.rom file and modified newbios.rom files) + nvflash files here: Download flashfiles.rar from Sendspace.com - send big files the easy way
4. Install the HP USB Key Utility
5. Launch the HP USB Key Utility and do the following:
- Insert your USB thumb drive.
- Select File system as "FAT32"
- Select Format Option as "Create a DOS bootable Disk..."
- Checkmark the box that says, "Quick Format"
- Locate the directory you extracted the Win98 files.
- Format the USB key using the the Win98 files.
6. Copy all the files from step #3 to the USB key
- nvflash.exe
- newbios.rom
- oldbios.rom
-etc.
7. Set your M15x bios to boot from USB Storage Device.
8. Attach the USB key to the system, reboot and it will load a dos prompt.
9. At the dos prompt you will need to type: nvflash -4 -5 -6 –A –y newbios.rom and when it asks if you want to flash the file, press ‘Y’.
10. You are done! If everything went well, you will now have 1v for your 2nd level 3D clocks which should enable you to overclock your GPU using RivaTuner. Be sure you do not use NST to overclock, only RivaTuner will do the job if you are applying the throttle fix.
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AW M15x Throttling Issue Investigation - Stock clocks and overclocked.
